Hi,

I have just acquired a 125cc Puch Dalesman Trials bike in need of more than a little TLC. It's been years since I was involved with trials and I've lost touch with where to get parts etc. Obviously an old bike like this presents even more of a challenge, but if anyone has any information, pictures, manuals etc that I could purchase, copy, borrow I would be really grateful. Also if there are business that specialize in this bike or similar I'd be happy to hear about them.

Thanks!

Ian

http://www.cybermotorcycle.com/euro/brands/puch.htm

try this

Vinnie

Ian,
well for engine parts you have to look in Austria(ebay or jumble's).Even here on the continent the Puch engine is a rare bird and parts are very hard to find.The bset thing is when you get in contact with Hartwig Kamarad,the director of the first trialsmusem in Ohlsdorf/Austria.I'am shure he can help you.I think he knows a few people who worked for the Puch company in the racing and development department.
Chrs:Mike

hes real german.......

hi micha

you could do worse than look through don morleys 'classic british two stroke trials bikes' four pages are devoted to the bikes. many of those involved are still active and i'm sure would be more than willing to give detail if asked ( nicely)

First motorcycle I ever had was a Dalesman Puch. It was used by Ernie Page in the 1969 ISDT.

I've seen parts on e-bay before now. Jim Lee (Mick Grant's sponsor) built the frames originally.

Would like to see a photo to see what model it is you have Ianashdown.

Big John

Hi,

I've posted some photos of my Puch Dalesman, as recieved, on Flickr. You can view them here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/64592529@N00/ I hope!
I'd appreciate any comments as to what appears to be correct original and what is not. Does anyone know what the correct original frame color should be? There appears to be a light grey color under the black, but I don't know if that's primer or original color. As you'll see one of the major missing parts is the tank. I've been told that this same tank was used on other bikes - anyone know which other bikes?

Also if any one know where to look for the Frame and Engine numbers I'd be grateful. Right now it's been hand painted and I can see one anywhere - mind you a quick blast with the pressure washer may help!

I had one of these bikes in 1972 when I was 15 back in England (now live in Southern California), and my memory of the details is just not working for me!

I hope the photos are interesting, I'll add some more when it's been cleaned up a bit!

Ian

Hi
(In my opinion) You have one of the later 'six speeders'. I bought one new in 1970.
Several mods have been carried out on the bike over the years.
Frame colour on mine was black, though I have now no recollection of frame and engine numbers.
You should note that Dalesman were only a very small producer
(and probably strapped for cash) so the exact specification and equipment fitted could vary from
bike to bike as they left the producer.
I do not recognise the yokes. mine had MP S600 forks, your fork legs are correct for this fork.
No prop stand was fitted, yours looks like a home made addition.
Your exhaust is again home brewed (certainly the silencer is).
The footrests are an after market type marketed by the accessory firm 'Wassell' in the 1970's and 1980's.
Your carb is a Bing and may well be correct for this engine. Mine was fitted with a cheapskate Amal Mk1 (rubbish).
Your front hub is probably an alloy conical replacement, could be REH, Rickman or BSA/Triumph, mine was a tiny
Puch from a moped, these were very poor and used to break up in any case.
The tank on mine was again from the Wassell people in alloy (a good tank).
Interestingly these tanks were still available up to 7 or 8years ago from Millers or Surrey Cycles,
marketed as a Tiger Cub tank or a general purpose trials tank
(I am looking for one now for a Miller Bultaco I am building - if anyone has got one surplus to requirements).
The fork sliders should be polished alloy (not black).
The rear hub (a Puch item) looks correct and in good condition.
Anyway, Good Luck with the Dalesman, any survivors deserve preservation.
I will help in any way if I can.
Kind Regards
Sparks2

The fork yolks are exactly as the ones I had on my Dalesman which was a 1969 machine. Frame colour was a mid-green and the front hub is an R.E.H (Robin E Humphries) Yolks could be REH or MP, I can't remember who made them, but I can honestly say they are as fitted to my bike. Rear Hub is Puch M125 and is also correct as is the swinging arm, but someone has fitted snail cam adjusters whereas originally they were bolt adjusters similar to the Puch road bike. Tanks were made by Wassell as they used the same tank on their bikes with Sachs motors.

I always thought the 125cc Puch motor was a five speed gearbox and the 169cc (175cc) motor had the six speed as used in the Greeves Pathfinder?

Big John

Hi (again)
Thanks for the input BJ. Sorry to contradict you but all the Puch road bike (M125) based Dalesmans were
4 speed. Some of the later ones had the Puch ISDT type engines and were six speed (still all 125cc). Although 4 and 6 speed
versions were available at the same time, the six speeder cost a bit more.
Greeves used a version of the Puch six speed ISDT type engine in the Pathfinder (in 175 form).
BJ is correct about the rear wheel adjusters and rear hub.
Your yokes are certainly not MP, if we assume BJ to be correct about them, then they are almost certainly REH
and could well have been supplied with the bike. So the same could go for the front hub.
How does a little old Dalesman produced in Otley find it's way to California?
Ian, If I were you, I would not bother unduly about originality but just concentrate on building a practical little trials bike.
Just hope that the engine, gearbox and electronic ignition are serviceable as replacements would be problematical.
Though the engine looks externally good and does not look hacked about. And the engine had a reputation as unburstable
and reliable (hence the ISDT tag).
Everything else should be repairable, replaceable or be able to be reproduced.
As we have seen and as I have tried to say earlier, the built spec and equipment could well have varied, bike to bike,
as the bikes were being built, using up what was to hand.
The Dalesman owned by BJ would have been a special build for the ISDT works effort, and as such, would have
been built to a higher standard than the one day bikes built for the punters.
Kind Regards
Sparks2

Hi,

I've counted the gears up and down and it seems the mine is a four speed. That a little dissapointing, but not really a big deal.

I think most of the rest is probably original, well not the exhaust, and I'll keep most of it. The foot pegs may not be, but they seem OK. The rear wheel adjusters might get changed, but I'm not sure at this point. I'll have to figure out which front mudguard mounting I should use, or maybe which one I can find! I did find a Tank at Sammy Millers and it is on its way. I think I need to replace the hand controls, handlebars and seat (obvious), and the rims need to be re-chromed, unless I can find some period Alloy Rims. Otherwise it's fairly straightforward - I think.

The front hub may be original, but so far I've found now way to drive a spedometer although there is a cable tyraped under the tank! I'm not bothered about a spedo, but I think it may be required if I plan to enter any events.

All in all a nice little project. I thought the engine was siezed, but it's not - it's just the kickstart thats jammed. Good news!

I'll try to decide the frame color etc. So far I've heard Green, Blue, Silver or Black as being the original color. I think mine was green back in 73 so I'm leaning that way.

I think the suggestion to not worry too much about originality is right on. I just wanted to figure out where I was starting from, and then re-build it in the correct period without being crazy about the details. I'm really not sure how this bike found its way out to California. It has a Sammy Miller Plate on the front so I think it was probably in England for some of its life. I found it locally and they have no history at all. If I could find a frame number I might be able to start tracking it down from the other end! I did locate the engine number; its 3603566. I don't know what that tells us, but at least I have a number.

I'll post some more photos on Flickr now it's been pressure washed.

Thanks for all the help and guidance,

Ian

Sorry Guys,

1970 was a long time ago and I got my first Bultaco in 1974 so I had actually forgotten that the Dalesman was a 4 speeder!

(SHAME ON ME!).

The bike I had was one of three prepared by Dalesman for the 1969 ISDT at Garmisch Partenkirchen (Bavaria).

For information: my bike (PSG 565H) was ridden by Ernie Page; my mate John Hodge's bike (PSH 564H) was ridden by Ian Miller and the third (never knew the reg number) was ridden by Scott Ellis. They had 20 inch front wheels, 18 inch rear fitted with Dunlop Sports MX tyres. Bing carb. A centre stand was fitted along with Wico Pacy lights front and rear. They had the MX still air boxes made in Glass-fibre. Seat was a short similar to the BSA Victor style. Front forks and hubs REH; Puch QD rear hub (sprocket carrier remained 'in situ' when rear wheel was removed).

Big John

Hi
I'm suprised that it is only 4 speed as it has the 6 speed flywheel cover and (I think) the
six speed larger finned barrel.
Ian, keep the rear wheel snail cams they are superior to the original bolt type.
If I were you, I would just use modern day alloy rims as re-chroming rims is not really successful.
I think the tank you have ordered from Millers will be the modern day Tiger Cub/universal
alloy tank, slightly different from the Wassell tank but never the less perfectly acceptable.
BJ - it would make sense that yours (built in 1969) was a four speeder as the first 6 speeders
were not built until the latter half of 1970.
Kind Regards
Sparks2

Hi,

It may be that I went thru a couple of gears! I hope it's a six-speed - my original one was. I agree with you about the cam adjusters, they look OK. I'd like to find a period style Alloy rim if I'm going to go that route. Morad still make the Valanced 'Akront' style rims and that might look quite good. I have had rims refinished in the past if they were original, but it's not inexpensive - especially here in California!

I think you're right on the tank, but we'll see what it looks like. I think it'll be just fine!

Do you know how I can tell when mine was made. I can't find a frame number, but I don't know where to look - any ideas where I should be concentrating my search? If I have a number, is there a register of bike made or whatever. Does the engine number tell us anything?

I really appreciate all the help, this is going to be fun!

Ian

[size="3"][/size]
Hi Ian,
I have original pages of "Motorcycle News" from 1969 with full page tests and reviews of the Dalesman. The first from July '69 reporting that the first batch of 50 had been sold and a second batch was being built. The other is from October 69 exclaiming the virtues of a new frame for the 1970 model.
If you pm me with your address I could loan them for copying if interested.

I was considering a new bike in 1969 and eventually settled on a Sprite with the 125 Sachs engine... just like the one waiting for completion behind two Saracen 125's in the far corner of the garage! Just how competitive they will be in the modern classic world I'm not sure. Not quite a twin-shock in the Fantic/TY mold but neither classic pre-65/70 two-stoke..

Incidentally, I have most MCN's from late 50's 'til late 70's boxed up in the garage! I try to sort them out occasionally but soon get enthralled at reading them and often amazed at how regular winners back then are still around doing the same today...

Andy

Hi Ian (and all readers)
As far as I can remember the frame number was on the headstock.
As to the engine number - I doubt anyone in the UK has any records, you may be able to search
further afield - Austria for instance - but be prepared for a long search.
As to the exact age of the Dalesman - I doubt now anyone has any records.
Peter Edmondson may be the man to ask - though I think a request for any info will be met with
complete disinterest. He left (or had to leave) the company shortly after this time.
I have no contact details for PE.
But examining the evidence i.e.
Late type frame.
Late ISDT type engine.
REH yokes, REH front hub.
My best guess would be 1971.
My Dalesman came new in November 1970 with a Puch front hub and all Dalesmans I had seen up to
that time had the Puch hub. So that would suggest a later date.
And by 1972, the company was in trouble, so 1971 would be my guess.
Kind Regards
Sparks2

I should have stated that the very first Dalesman Puch trials did have the Puch moped front hub and forks, however the MX version had the heavier alloy REH hub and heavier duty forks. My actual 1969 bike was a 'hybrid', being part trials and part MX model to cope with the requirements of the ISDT which was it's intended purpose at that time.

In 1969 the frame colour was definately green.

The reason that Dalesman bikes were exported to the USA is quite simple, American finance backed the small company in Otley, Yorkshire!

I also remember Joel Robert tested the first of the MX machines when he was contracted to CZ.

Big John

Hi,

After a little careful scraping of the nasty black brushed-on paint job I have revealed a previous Silver, hammer finish. I don't know if this is original or one of many in the life of this bike.

I'm still thinking that the front hub may not original as there is no provision for a speedo drive. I don't really care, but it does add to the mystery, particularly as there was a speedo cable taped to the frame!

I've started to dismantle the bike and will be posting more pictures to Flick at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/64592529@N00/sets/

Thank you all for the input, everything is helpful.

More to come!

Ian

Silver hammer finish I recall as original on the 6 speeder my brother had. After the Puch hub they used three different front hubs (presumably what they could get hold of) one of which was REH.

However here's something more interesting - if I remember correctly Dalesman were the first to have a disc brake on the front of a trials bike. I remember seeing a picture in one of the weeklies and the bike was ridden by Mick Wilkinson. I think pad life was a problem and possibly the rocks too as it was a big disc by modern standards.

By the way the exhaust looks original to me.

Hi,

It's good to get confirmation of the paint color. I'll have to decide if I go with Silver or the mid-green color that I remember from my original bike back in '72. I'm surprised to hear that the exhaust might be original! Good job I didn't throw it away!. I haven't found a picture of anything that looks similar, although I have found some where I could say that the first pipe could be the same. The silencer looks a little home made! If anyone has any pictures showing this or any exhausr style I'd love to see it.

I've put up a load of Pictures on flickr at http://www.flickr.com/photos/64592529@N00/sets/ recently, and I've been collecting all kind of photograps of other Dalesman and/or Puch machines, I'll try to post them to the same site in the next day or two. If this is a helpful resourse to someone it will have been worth it.

Cheers!

Ian

Hi Ian
I have just sent you a personal Message.
Regards
Sparks2

Ian

Your bike is a 1972 from looking at the Dalesman literature that I have. The pipe is correct as is the front wheel. Some 72's came with the Puch moped front forks and front wheel others came with the better REH front forks and front wheel. The seat is correct. These bikes came with both 4 or 6 speed motors. Motor West has lots of parts for these bikes. I think this is the same bike I tried to buy on Craigs list out in CA last week. I bought a 1968 Saracen instead as the guy on Craigs never sent me any more photos. Mark Hollaway is setting up a Dalesman web site like the Vintage Monark site.

Hi,

This is all great information. I would really love to speak to you about getting copies of whatever Dalesman information you have. I started posting pictures to flickr because there is so little information about these bikes on the web. I've actually thought about starting a small web site as a repository for anything and everything I could gather on these bikes. Do you have good pictures that you'd be willing to share?

Yes this is the one on Craigslist. He didn't send me the photos either, but I'm close enough I just got in the car and went there! Did the deal right away! He had a nice little Cotton that almost found a new home as well!!

I would really appreciate any information, pictures, specs or whatever that you would be willng to sell, copy etc. If there is going to be a web site already I may not bother - he'll probably do a much better job - but if not I may put something together to share the story of my restoration, everything I learn along the way and all the information I can put together.

I'll sent you my e-mail via PM

All the very best,

Ian

I've just added 34 new pictures of other Dalesmans gathered form all over the place. I hope they are helpfull or at least enjoyable.

You can find them at http://www.flickr.com/photos/64592529@N00/sets/

Ian

Ian I saw on you Flicker photo page you had a photo of my 1971 Greeves Pathfinder from my Myspace page. Small world.

hi Ian, another Ian here, just aquired a '69 Puch Dalesman all complete, in reasonable nick for a 30 y/o bike, I have the original green log book for mine, and it was bought from Terry Sylvester in Holmefirth in March '69, haven't had chance to have a good look at it yet, as I've only just got her tonight, (picking it up saturday) ,,,and, like yourself, am on the hunt for info on what to look for, part sourcing, and general knowledge on this bike,,,'tis a bit of local history for me

Hi
That's interesting. Nigel Greenwood bought a Puch Dalesman from Terry Silvester's in Holmfirth in March 1969.
Terry cannot have sold that many Dalesmans. If the bike is Nigel's, Nigel or his father Frank's name should be the next name in the log book after
Terry Silvester, the supplying dealer. If the bike is Nigel's I know something of it's subsequent history.
Kind Regards
Sparks2

hi Sparks,,,sorry mate, the next guy after Terry is a Mr Jack Anthony Roberts on the 17th March '70, then Mr Roberts again with a change of address on the 24th August '70, next up a Mr Michael Alan Taylor in what looks like '70, although the stamp is a bit blurred, then Mr David Harrison, '73, Mr Nigel Martin Greenwood, '74, Mr Anthony Haig, 29th July, ''75, and finally myself,
,,,you think Nigel Greenwood, who bought the bike in '74 is the same guy Sparks ?

Hi Ian, PUCH IS AWAKE are the bumper stickers we promoted in the early 70's when I sold Puch motorcycles. I must admit that the Dalesman model was not offered to us at that time, but I suspect the bulletproof, 125 & 175 radial head, aircooled, Bing and Bosch equipped enduro models closely resembled the Dalesman. I have fond memories of the reliability we enjoyed with those models until they pulled out of the U.S. Any correspondence would be thoroughly enjoyed.

Hi Swampy
No, it's a different Nigel Greenwood, just a co-incidence I think.
But I do know David Harrison from Thurstonland, a village just south of Huddersfield.
And I know he had an early Dalesman round about 1973 and that he did a certain amount of restoration work on it at the time, indeed I can remember
seeing it around the country lanes of south Huddersfield at the time. Small world eh!
Kind Regards
Sparks2

interesting indeed Sparks, many thanks sir,,,long shot, but are there any manuals around for the Puch motor ?
,,may even pop over an' buy you a pint in the Bronte sometime

Hi Swampy
Yes, there is a manual for the Puch motor, certainly for the 125/175 six speed motor, so you should find something for the 4 speeder which was produced in greater numbers and was in the Puch
125 road bike of course. Just keep trawling E-bay and something should turn up.
Kind Regards
Sparks2

many thanks sir

That is definately my friend Nigel M. Greenwood from Huddersfield and I have seen action photos of the Dalesman bike he had many times.

I have just had a text back from him coinfirming his middle name...

Big John

many thanks for the response Big John , when I bring the bike home tomorrow, I'll try and get a few photo's and post 'em up,,see if he recognises his old bike he sold,,,bloody 'ell ! 34 years ago !

Nigel has had quite a few trials bikes since that Dalesman (just about everything that has ever been made in fact), but he has had his special TLR250 Honda for 15 years now.

Big John

,,well, shes a runner, but needs a hell of a lot of fettlin' as you can see,,,

Hi
Just hang on a bit here BJ !!! I think you could be putting 2 and 2 together and making 5.
Nigel and his father did buy a new Dalesman from Terry Silvester in March 1969, I know because in a small way I helped them assemble it.
Nigel did not ride the Dalesman for long as he was riding a 170 Minarelli Cotton from late 1969/early 1970 onwards. That was soon followed by a 250 Bultaco model 49, eventually to be fitted with a Miller frame.
I've known Nigel all his life and he has kept very stum about a middle name.
Now if Nigel had bought this particular bike in about 1974 it was not his original one from 1969, as we have seen, that was first registered to a
Mr Roberts. The 'action photos' you have seen will have been Nigel riding his original Dalesman in 1969. That incidentally was Nigel's second trials bike and his first new one, his first trials bike being a secondhand Greeves Anglian.
In about 1974 the Dalesman would have been completely outmoded, outdated and completely unfasionable so I could only see Nigel, then a rising Yorkshire Centre expert, buying one for old times sake, not to ride competitively.
Anyway, now the only definative answer will be to ask Nigel himself.
Anyway I do enjoy 'discussing' old trials bikes and riders.
We have not heard from Ian Ashdown, who originated this thread, I wonder how he is going on with his Dalesman.
Kind Regards
Sparks2

Sorry Sparks2, but you are wrong on this one, I have spoken to the man himself today at around 2.30pm, it was his Dalesman, he bought it from Terry new and the bike wasn't in his name the year he had it the bike, it wasn't registered in Nigel's name but Terry's. Nigel bought it back in around 1973/74 and it was registered in his name at that time before he sold it on. Nigel has been watching the thread himself but hasn't posted on here for quite a while. Nigel also confirmed the bike that followed was indeed a Cotton as you say.
So Swampy, you do have the ex-Nigel M. Greenwood Dalesman! Nigel will try to send you a message on here so you can make contact for more information shortly!
Big John

Hi
Yes, Thanks BJ for clearing this up. Now it all becomes clear. Don't forget it was me that first suggested that the bike could be Nigel's.
Good to see the NG Dalesman again after all these years. It deserves an honourable restoration and further use

My best regards to Nigel, Swampy, BJ and all concerned.
Sparks2

Ah well the finale to this story is that original rider Nigel Greenwood has managed to get in touch with the current owner, so no doubt a bikes' history can now be preserved!

Nice one... happy ending indeed!

Big John

,,many thanks BJ, message replied to, and Ian, my appologies sir, for hijacking your thread

initial investigation will see me trawling the autojumbles for a new carb, (tickler boss in the float cover plate has snapped off),,and the main things it will need are fresh wheel rims and respoking, no big deal as Paul Jackson is right on my doorstep, new fasteners throughout, and a good fettlin',,,,some new rear shockers too, as the ones that are on it seem about 3" too short, rear tyre is rubbing, again folks, many thanks for your input here, much appreciated