[John Collins]

The fact that the ACU Trials Forum is cancelled through lack of attendance is more than a little disappointing – especially as there are several issues – many of which are often debated among these posts. Just a few would be: 2007 Observing rules, Championship formats, Many Land& access issues – (including some facts to the questions posed often on this site i.e. What is the ACU doing about it - and sadly some quite worrying issues that are likely to severely affect our sport very soon.
Add in Insurance (it is now mandatory to have Insurance in a Public Place)
Also add in Risk Assessment , H & S, Medical requirements, and we have about half the agenda – before we even come to how your money is spent/or wasted also promotion – which many keep bleating about and support for young riders – again many bleating – not so many ready to sit down and make solid suggestions other than just buying a lorry.

All this is by the by – and I am probably used to it. Lots of people have lots to say – and lots of advice to give – but find it difficult to give up a day /time and travel to Rugby. This is fair enough – but I do take umbrage when many of those same people delight in constantly criticising members of a Committee who give up many weekends.

What I am really fed up about – is the prats who feel they have the right to spout nonsense – in order to justify their own lack of effort – or in the case of some gross ignorance or stupidity.

Before I go any further let me just mention two facts.

ACU Elections –

Nov – to choose T & E COMMITTE. Except for the two retiring members who are due for re-election – only ONE other nomination.

DIRECTORS – The gravy train – as some of you call it – so good – except for the two retiring members – not one single nomination. Must be a cracking job?

Back to posts re Forum Cancellation

Let me start with the least offensive – but nevertheless inaccurate pearls of wisdom:

AS IOW wrote on 08.09.2006:
yes well if you hadn’t arranged it when most people with something to say were in Repoll in Spain, at the European championships. you mite have had more intrest.
Anyway everyone knows that the ACU has no real intrest in trials, and would rather spend thier, ( Or our ) money on road racing.Fact : We try very hard to hold the Trials Forum in Aug ( not ideal – holiday time, some Champ still long way to go etc) or ideally Sept - or early October.

The main reason for this – is that we have to finalise rules/regulations etc in time for handbook – and N.Council which has end of Oct deadline. We believe that we should give people the chance to have their say – and if changes are then needed / agreed ( and they often have been in both T & Enduro ) – if possible they should be put in place for following year.

Many years ago – before I was a member of T & E committee – and riding all the Brit champ Enduro’s – I used to attend the forums and believed I had something to say. It used to infuriate me – that even when there was agreement it was often “ too late for next year – would have to be year after” – I could not really comprehend this – and so we have tried to make things happen sooner rather than later.

It is certainly a travesty of justice that IOW cannot attend because he is away – but if he thinks that “ most people with something to say are away in Spain” – he is certainly living in cloud cuckoo land. The proportion of people away at this event is a very small percentage of the trials world indeed – and the fact that he revels in his – or their self importance is a disgrace to all the other members of all the different trials facets.

Perhaps he is better at maths than thinking?

Possible dates weekends:

Aug 1 - A few were at Hawskstone
2 - Brit Champ – Yorks & Classic Champ –W.Country
3 - Brit Champ / Ladies Champ/ C & D Champ
4 - Manx , Plus I dared ride in Sammy Miller round – so would not be there

Sept 1- Womens World & Youth / Mens World and Inter Centre Team Trial
2. UEM Trials in Spain & Classic DATE WE CHOOSE
3 Brit Champ/ Sidecar Champ/ Pre 67 ICTT, & Trail Champ which I was C/Course &Sec
4 FIM World, Trail Champ, Novogar , FIM Womens, Brit Champ S/Car & Classic

Oct 1 TDN , ( I am there) Novogar, Classic, A & B Champ,
2 Brit Champ
3 Lakes. Youth Champ – IOW ?


So is the date we choose - that far out ?

Can I ask IOW – to email Mary Kerr his name on Monday – and I will peruse his contributions and attendance at past Forums over say last 5 years when there was no such clash.

Finally – the much lauded criticism -

No one in the ACU is interested in Trials - You cheeky sod. If you can write down the hours you spend on behalf of Trials – in general – not self interest -and send them to me –( I know you won’t have the guts to post them on this site – and they add up to 25% of the unpaid hours I am putting in - I will visit you and give you a personal cheque to finance the entire riding season of a rider of your choice. In fact I reckon there is so little chance of me loosing I could probably walk there. Other members of T & E, I am positive would be more than willing to compare the hours they put in to yours to “ care” for Trials.

My real challenge – if you cannot list the time and work you put in as a comparison ( I will list mine) you have the bottle to donate £20 to a Charity?

Finally on your drivel- They would rather spend their ( our) money on Road racing.

First it may be worth actually listing how much you actually spend – i.e. £10 plus number of times you rode in 2006 - or are we talking the Royal we? Let’s have some facts – and then look at how your money is spent.

For the umpteenth time – and this is for everyone.

Trials in the UK - is categorically not subsidising Road racing. I have said this before – and I do not like being called a liar. So again shut up or put up.
I will travel – anywhere at any time – and within an hour reckon I can prove to even the dunderheads that Road race is a very big contributor to the overall ACU pot indeed.

Again however – I am fed up with stupidity. Again if I am wrong I will make a hefty personnel contribution to a charity – but I expect the same amount donated if I am correct. We can easily appoint someone with some sense to judge the issue – costs to be paid by loser?

It is very tempting to put chapter and verse about comparison of money raised/spent on Web site or in Press – but when the Road Racers start to investigate – are we confident we can justify our side? Who will have to answer them - somehow I suspect it will be me?


Now let me move on to another dreamer – with more mouth than substance

theused wrote on 08.09.2006:
ha ha good point, dont forget about all the fancey holidays and matching paddock jackets etc, dont they loook nice, they dont do anything, but dont they just look the part, or was i ment to say tarts.

This presumably is a follow on from his last gem of wisdom:

“also instead of the a.c.u sending like 7 members and officals to every world round and staying in hotels, drinking wine, dancing we bitches and not actually knowing why they are there accept spending our entry fee money on stuff they dont need to, or throwing big dinners at fancey hotels when the cud be investing money like wot the other countrys do in there top riders, at the moment we have the best young riders in the world, and if the a.c.u stop spending all our money on ****, and them selfs and invested it in, dabil, brown,

Simple challenge this one – and do not be afraid to name names.


Just inform me – either on this site – or by email – to any Trial or Enduro World you have been to where 7 members and Officials and they wives have been staying in hotels , drinking wine and dancing ( - f--- dancing he’s having a larf !)

In fact I will make it even easier - you can use beads to count - just inform me of any World Round Trials or Enduro where the ACU have sent more than 1 person as an Official. – The only exception maybe a World/UEM round in UK where the rules stipulate the Federation must provide an International Jury member – and then we would obviously send an ACU delegate to attend Jury meetings on behalf of riders – as the fist guy (who incidentally is paid for by Organiser not ACU) has to be independent. Obviously Into rules also demand Technical Inspector and some other Officials.
Finally - “the used” - next time you see me at any event –please come and whisper a few words in my ear – as this tart looks forward to meeting you.


The are many problems that will face Trials in the next few years. Some of us are trying very hard to solve them – and it will always be a thankless task – no real problem here – that will not change.

What will change however is if those with big mouths and little between the ears except air – are not prepared to be involved in constructive criticism - they may find that even the “tarts” decide to spend more time riding themselves or going to events with their offspring – or trying to impress with tales of woe anyone who will listen.

[totalshell]

some fair points well put, even in the heat of the moment... . i guess we should all take a look in the mirror before we pick on the easy targets..

[Andy]

I absolutely back John 100% in his comments. You were all given the opportunity to attend this forum and air your views. The fact it has been cancelled due to a lack of interest, in my opinion, clearly shows the level of complacency that exists within Trials in the UK.

How many of you have ever met John? I have and, despite the "ACU are s***" mentality that is more than prevalent, if you ever sat down and actually talked to the guy about Trials in the UK as I have done, you'd realise he's a helluva lot more interested than you may think. If he weren't interested in Trials and, as was inferred, totally interested in road racing, why would he spend so much time compiling a response to the open forum being cancelled? Why would he even bother posting here? If he genuinelly wasn't interested then he wouldn't have taken the time to compose what is an extensive reply.

Stop and think about it. He is on your side - you just have to realise that.

[scorpa3]

John you are right, I could and should have found time to attend, I have no excuse, it's all too easy to think someone else will attend and cover the items which concern me and a number....... infact all, of the issues you mention are important to the trials club I'm in.
IF, we get another chance I won't make the same mistake in the future.

[barrybaines]

r2wtrials, on Sep 8 2006, 10:53 PM, said:

... this is my personal view so just take it as that.
... I have met John and it is obvious from previous posts and the one above that he really cares about the state of the UK and world trials scene.
I may not have been a supporter of everything the ACU has done but we have to have a governing body, there is no way trials or any motorcycle sport would have lasted as long as it has without them....
I assisted in the running of an ACU club for 5 years in the south east, writing the newsletter, attending most of the committee meetings and helping to set out many club and centre trials in those years. But as time has moved on and people have many other things to occupy their time and money these days les and less will want to be that involved they will travel half way up the country to sit in a meeting like that... and anyway, it's easier to type stuff on here from anywhere in the world and as John will know it is easier to sling mud when you are faceless!!

.. My personnel feelings are that an online get together would be better attended. Look how many get on here every night, almost the only common interest we have is the sport of trials. I know it is taking up more of someones time in the ACU but if we had an ACU trials forum, whether it be on here or on the ACU website, that questions or views could be aired and if possible answered ... and even suggestions by the trials commitee tested out... i think there will be constructive input. The one thing it would need is perhaps some way of either using your real names or perhaps your ACU licence number being your sign in details.... just to stop the people who want to be abusive but hide behind their PC's.

Now i have joined an ACU club for the first time in nearly 10 years i will even get a licence myself soon!!!

Bloody hell whos that then? after the abuse you gave me!

[The artist formerly known as Ishy]

Andy, on Sep 8 2006, 09:29 PM, said:

I absolutely back John 100% in his comments. You were all given the opportunity to attend this forum and air your views. The fact it has been cancelled due to a lack of interest, in my opinion, clearly shows the level of complacency that exists within Trials in the UK.

But you will give that daft bugger from the USA free reign to post the same old NATC ***** day after day, even his own forum to do it in.

[Andy]

ishy, on Sep 8 2006, 11:19 PM, said:

But you will give that daft bugger from the USA free reign to post the same old NATC ***** day after day, even his own forum to do it in.

I don't see anybody from the NATC standing up to fight their corner. If I did and could potentialy see valid reason to disallow things as they stand then I would. I guess we're lucky, though some may not realise it, in having John as a voice for the Trials community who is prepared to stand up, face the lions den of these forums and be accountable.

[Slapshot 3]

I've never been involved at any level in trials apart from doing my little bit for the club but I can vouch for John's frustrations. For the last 9 years solid I've been involved at various level in Ice Hockey. Team Manager, Fixtures secretary, Club Chairman, Team Coach at club (all junior age groups), conference, Scotland, and GB. I've worked with the SIHA closely in that time and know exactly the frustrations John has written.

I've spent years being dragged through employment tribunals, equal opportunities councils, Racial equality councils, Local council ombudsman, hauled in front of Sportscotland, MSPs you name itbecause one a*** thinks he's bigger than the club/sport etc. I've been there all for the love of a sport. I've been on the expensive overseas trips, to the expensive hotels (sleeping bag on a school floor next to the rink in Sweden), I've had the free, fancy national team jacket that cost me a donation of £50....need I go on? No you're right, I don't.

However, why the rant, well simple really; If you ain't willing to put up don't criticise. The ACU (or AMCA) is the body we need to keep our sport on the right side of the law otherwise WE become the yobbos and hooligans WE slag off on a regular basis on here when we lose land cause they're pi$$ing about on our good trials country. They are the people who take the fight to DEFRA with LARA because Defra's heads are so far up Prescott's jacksy they've lost sight of reality.

John, I don't always agree with some of the things our sport does either at ACU or SACU level but I won't bleat about it because I don't have the time to put up and take a bigger share. I try not to criticise because I don't have the time to do something about it. I'll take the bad stuff because I want to ride my bike from time to time.

For everyone else; like the man says put up or shut up, don't shoot the blokes who make it happen.

This post has been edited by Slapshot 3: 08 September 2006 - 11:04 PM

[rabie]

AMEN to that !!!

i didn't go because we are a busy (circa 25+ events per year) and we do things besides trials (MX & Enduro). while i have several points of contention with the TEC I'll only list two below

1) election - we all know the process is deeply floored. first and foremost in our end of the world the trials spectrum is separate form the enduro as it is from MX or Grass Track, thus why should we have a committee that trys to cover both? especially when trials is in every centre and enduro is in many. thus for elections - when two well known men are up for ***re-election*** - ACU election only see real change when someone stands down as any lame duck will be re-elected because they are "known". i don't see how any new well qualified candidate can stand and canvas all 20+ centres to secure election (I'm speaking in the theoretical sense here, rather than about any individual). more specifically why is there no one from one of the most active centres (my one) on the TEC ??? - we run actively in both fields (possible the largest centre) yet we have no say in decision making (an issue is about to arise re enduros and ages).

2) observation rules. i appreciate why we need the simplicity of only two type of observing rules but fundamentally in the longer term i believe this position is untenable. if people want to run a trial where riders can bunny hop, why not? my club took much umbrage (they are a bunch of obstinate MX'ers who don't know very much about the kind of trials talked about here) when your recent memo stating that we must use A or B only. in our LDTs (and other clubs) a variety of ideas have been used that aren't TSR 22 A or B - the world didn't fall down and i don't know what the fuss is about. fundamentally we (the ACU) are here to facilitate motorcycle sport (ie bums on seats) not to hinder it - people will just say f*** that and go run AMCA/ORPA and we'll be in a worse position than we are in know

just two abstract points , the proposed agenda doesn't really interest me as its not my end of trials and as above i was otherwise preoccupied. i do accept your very valid slagging off of the two gents who made wild unsupported statements (i do believe i countered one of them at length!)

[AtomAnt]

r2wtrials, on Sep 8 2006, 10:53 PM, said:

.. My personnel feelings are that an online get together would be better attended. Look how many get on here every night, almost the only common interest we have is the sport of trials. I know it is taking up more of someones time in the ACU but if we had an ACU trials forum, whether it be on here or on the ACU website, that questions or views could be aired and if possible answered ... and even suggestions by the trials commitee tested out... i think there will be constructive input. The one thing it would need is perhaps some way of either using your real names or perhaps your ACU licence number being your sign in details.... just to stop the people who want to be abusive but hide behind their PC's.

Now i have joined an ACU club for the first time in nearly 10 years i will even get a licence myself soon!!!

I have been known to speak out against the ACU a few times but its never against the people, just the organisation. Since I got back into trials and like some other people I know, I've spent a fair share of my spare time ( and considerable sums of money) doing work for the benefit of others in trials but I do it by choice because I enjoy doing it so no complaints however, If I have a gripe then I shouldn't be made to feel bad about expressing a view as long as its not a personal attack.

I don’t hide behind a name, I stand up and say what I feel and if somebody doesn’t like it then its plain tough. Express your view and then let’s get a debate going. I tend to post emotive topics just to do that. To pull people into debates and have serious discussions on subjects I'm passionate about, like the future of Youth Trials for instance.

This leads nicely into the post Heath made above.

I feel very strongly that the ACU does not communicate well with its members - The ACU has its website and the publication we get but what is lacking is direct engagement. Heaths suggestion would solve that I believe.

If the ACU management and a team of selective TC site members who run clubs (there’s a few of us on here) and some responsible trials riders who just participate in the sport were a member of a discreet forum either hosted on this website, the ACU’s website or another ( I would build one for free if it required it). We could get involved in active debate and discussion and have the possibility of contributing to the future of trials at our convenience all year round.

I do have experience with this system as I was involved in a similar development forum with EA Games in the development of its WW2 Medal of Honor franchise. It worked very well and was extremely constructive.

Up till now someone has had a rant, John comes on and replys defending the ACU and then the cycle continues. This proposal would get us out of this cycle and start to make some progress I believe.

What do you say to this John?

IMHO

[scorpa3]

AtomAnt, on Sep 9 2006, 07:48 AM, said:

r2wtrials, on Sep 8 2006, 10:53 PM, said:

.. My personnel feelings are that an online get together would be better attended. Look how many get on here every night, almost the only common interest we have is the sport of trials. I know it is taking up more of someones time in the ACU but if we had an ACU trials forum, whether it be on here or on the ACU website, that questions or views could be aired and if possible answered ... and even suggestions by the trials commitee tested out... i think there will be constructive input. The one thing it would need is perhaps some way of either using your real names or perhaps your ACU licence number being your sign in details.... just to stop the people who want to be abusive but hide behind their PC's.

Now i have joined an ACU club for the first time in nearly 10 years i will even get a licence myself soon!!!

I have been known to speak out against the ACU a few times but its never against the people, just the organisation. Since I got back into trials and like some other people I know, I've spent a fair share of my spare time ( and considerable sums of money) doing work for the benefit of others in trials but I do it by choice because I enjoy doing it so no complaints however, If I have a gripe then I shouldn't be made to feel bad about expressing a view as long as its not a personal attack.

I don’t hide behind a name, I stand up and say what I feel and if somebody doesn’t like it then its plain tough. Express your view and then let’s get a debate going. I tend to post emotive topics just to do that. To pull people into debates and have serious discussions on subjects I'm passionate about, like the future of Youth Trials for instance.

This leads nicely into the post Heath made above.

I feel very strongly that the ACU does not communicate well with its members - The ACU has its website and the publication we get but what is lacking is direct engagement. Heaths suggestion would solve that I believe.

If the ACU management and a team of selective TC site members who run clubs (there’s a few of us on here) and some responsible trials riders who just participate in the sport were a member of a discreet forum either hosted on this website, the ACU’s website or another ( I would build one for free if it required it). We could get involved in active debate and discussion and have the possibility of contributing to the future of trials at our convenience all year round.

I do have experience with this system as I was involved in a similar development forum with EA Games in the development of its WW2 Medal of Honor franchise. It worked very well and was extremely constructive.

Up till now someone has had a rant, John comes on and replys defending the ACU and then the cycle continues. This proposal would get us out of this cycle and start to make some progress I believe.

What do you say to this John?

IMHO

AtomAnt. Thnk you for this suggestion, I personally think that is an excellent idea.

Of course it would be better if all the interested parties could meet up in person but as it seems WE are unable/unwilling to do this perhaps a different solution might help.

Your offer is a good one and I for one would like to be involved in such a forum if it were to happen.

[AtomAnt]

scorpa3, on Sep 9 2006, 08:39 AM, said:

Of course it would be better if all the interested parties could meet up in person but as it seems WE are unable/unwilling to do this perhaps a different solution might help.

The problem with a formal meeting like proposed is that you need to prepare fully and take all relevant info with you to be a viable contributor. On here you can read a post, go away and think/research about your reply in your own time before you post it and its likely to be more constructive and relevant.
There would be a considerable benefit if it was hosted on this site as we all come on here anyway and have accounts already set up. A seperate forum takes just a few moments to set up as well and it could be up and running in no time. I haven't spoke to Andy about it but I am sure he would not object and would welcome the sites participation.

[Paioli]

problem sorted, run the acu trials forum on line maybe over a 4 week period if andy could sort it
on trials central it would be the best trials forum the acu ever had, with only your real names used
some people would realy have to put some thought into what they want to say,and they would have
the time to do it.

just an simple idea from some one who would have liked to have attended,and would definitely
welcome a on line debate.


ps well said john you can now come down off the ceiling ( JOKE )

[totalshell]

excellent idea to get people involved , if the mountain wont move..... move closer to the mountain,
any dialogue has to be better than no dialogue, i cant belive that any club secretary/ interested party would not have access to the internet
surely if the forum was opened for 28 days and had a number of points for discussion under seperate headings and people used their licence numbers for identification and validation of interest the ACU could come away with a number of ideas/propasals that they could take away and even have interested parties vote on accepting one principle over another.


COMMUNICATION IS THE KEY, LET THE ACU SHOW THAT IT CAN EMBRACE THE NEW OPPORTUNITES AND THAT WE DONT ALL HAVE TO GIVE UP A SATURDAY MORNING TO MEET IN A HOTEL FOYER TO DECIDE /DISCUSS SOMETHING.

This post has been edited by totalshell: 09 September 2006 - 06:05 PM

[Andy]

I'm at my folks for the weekend. I'll speak to John when I'm back and take things from there.