15 replies to this topic

[John Collins]

There were quite a lot of posts recently in regard the whole issue of the cancelled ACU Trials Forum , consequent article in T MX and of course suggestions for an online forum etc. I did post that I was busy with last round of UEM Enduro and then TDN and was not just ignoring the posts – but would start to reply as soon as I got back – so here goes.

Re- JD’s article in TMX – I note that many of you have taken issue – or agreed with it on this site – so really it needs little further comment from me.
I have written to JD about a few things I disagreed with – and he has acknowledged these – equally he has written to me about a few things he disagreed with and I have acknowledged these. This is the way we have always worked – and hopefully always will.

One important point I do think he made – and I accept - is that you cannot be replacing forums and discussions with a Committee with an entirely Web based Forum – that all too often can degenerate into anonymous people having a rant and then forming an uneducated or misinformed opinion – or calling everyone rotten if they do not get the response they like.

I can offer no better example than the numerous posts that constantly refer to the need for a lorry or personnel to trawl around Europe in the fashion the Italians or Spanish do – and then accuse the ACU of wasting money on various other things if such a lorry is not forthcoming. Only once ( at an event in Spain where a parent of a young British rider had actually worked very hard at producing a comprehensive plan – which I am still looking at) have I seen some actual facts and figures – or some realistic proposals. Never – have I seen any realistic views on how the Spanish or Italian effort is funded, and never have I seen people take into consideration the Insurance, Drivers, fact that we always have to cross the Channel etc taken into real account.

All this is a good serious agenda item for discussion – but it needs meat put on the bones before it can be even discussed properly – and just “ Why don’t the ACU fund a lorry etc” – is a direct question – and needs some direct answers before it can be discussed properly.

Another point that really does need to be strongly made – is that the T & E – is a Committee.
It is not the ACU -John Collins Committee. We have hard working members – and I have to tell you that not all are fans of Web site based Forums. You may find this strange – you may find it unacceptable – but it is a fact.
If someone works hard at trying best do their best for the sport of Trials – and then read that they know little about it , or do not care, or never listen , it is not surprising that they soon lose interest in Web based comments – or for that matter in magazine based comments also. For me this is not a problem – as Chairman I see it as part of the job – and have never been afraid to stick my head above the parapet anyway – or as many have observed “ you are just an argumentative sod anyway”.

In case all this seems negative – let me try to progress – because I do also wish to get some positives out of recent posts.

The whole issue of a Web based Forum – is surely past tense. We already have it – or else what have I and others been reading and replying to for last year or so? When I go on the Trials Central Site – I click onto Trials Forum ? So the thing is already there – and while it may seem I have obviously been too ACU defensive – it is hard fact that all comments ( even the nasty ones) have been taken on board . Not always agreed with of course – not always implemented – but never ever ignored.

For me – what is now needed – is to try to address the various comments and questions you pose – and also to try to deal sensibly with criticism. Of course this can be done in a Forum based manner – and as long as we take One Agenda item –so to speak – at a time – and not dive off on tangents - like – why the hell do I need a photo on my licence if I am renewing ( fair point – and I do not think you do) – but then someone replies about the photo – but finishes with why the hell are we not on FIM rules anyway – the posts become far too difficult to handle – and the Web based Forum does not work. In a room based Forum at Rugby of course presumably a Chairman would run (or try to) the meeting and we could stick to one point at a time.

In order to progress this whole Forum discussion – I now propose to post a new post – if you agree – and of course Andy agrees headed ACU matters/ discussion etc – where I think we can at least attempt to move in the direction so many of you desire – but I warn in advance – some of you may not like my starting point – and it may be some time before you get to the bits that interest you – and this may well be difficult – for if you ain’t part of the solution – you are certainly part of the problem.

[Andy]

John Collins, on Oct 3 2006, 06:32 PM, said:

In order to progress this whole Forum discussion – I now propose to post a new post – if you agree – and of course Andy agrees headed ACU matters/ discussion etc – where I think we can at least attempt to move in the direction so many of you desire – but I warn in advance – some of you may not like my starting point – and it may be some time before you get to the bits that interest you – and this may well be difficult – for if you ain’t part of the solution – you are certainly part of the problem.

I have absolutely no objection. I would, however, suggest a new forum section for this, not for any other reason than the forums move kind of fast these days and topics tend to get buried in the ether rather quickly - as can be seen by the previous topic on this. A seperate section would not move so fast, would be easier for folk to find topics and it would be easier to ensure things remained on-topic and to police properly in terms of inappropriate postings.

[gkp413]

Would it be possible to separate a new forum into topics? (In the same way as the current message board gets lodged under a heading when it is filed away). That way John could start the forum with the topics he and the committee feel are the most pressing (so for instance if the feeling from the guys doing the work is that there is a need to solicit input on "minders at trials" then this would be the topic heading). Anything that was not directly related to a topic could be binned in "anything else" which would be the area for John and the team to look for new topics they wish to consider when the established ones are closed out. If we don't have some discipline the forum will just grow and grow to a point where John and the team cannot handle the plethora of issues and then everyone will start the "nothing gets fixed" discussion all over again.
The guy's at the ACU have an impossible task, on this sort of "open question site" there are 40 or 50 people posting items about what they are or are not doing at headquarters but we could not get 10-15 people to the forum to make it work. If the idea is to use Trials Central to provide that opportunity to help shape the future of the sport then the contributors have got to work with John and his team, not against them.

[The Addict]

Good points all round and the idea of a seperate Forum will work better due to posts being lost or forgotten about. I dont have any issues with the ACU I can think of, pays me tenner and gets a card with a number on with an odd looking bloke who looks like hes just robbed a bank.
It will be good to be able to see other peoples ideas and issues and they can be bounced around on here and hopefully make a difference for the better. Never really give the actual running of the sport much thought as I dont compete very often anymore ,but I am sure lots of people have lots of input and hopefully constructive ones to post.

Good luck with it guys

[scorpa3]

I personally welcome the web site based forum suggestion. It is far better than a series of cancelled meetings. I really hope this gets a go ahead from the T&E committee, even if it is just for a 'trial' period.

[Nigel Dabster]

scorpa3, on Oct 3 2006, 08:22 PM, said:

I personally welcome the web site based forum suggestion. It is far better than a series of cancelled meetings. I really hope this gets a go ahead from the T&E committee, even if it is just for a 'trial' period.

There was never a "series" of meetings cancelled, just this years due to lack of commitment.

This is a great idea and lets hope it provides some items for the T and E committee.

[AtomAnt]

scorpa3, on Oct 3 2006, 08:22 PM, said:

I personally welcome the web site based forum suggestion. It is far better than a series of cancelled meetings. I really hope this gets a go ahead from the T&E committee, even if it is just for a 'trial' period.

What he said

[StuartC]

Personally I think delegates from clubs/centres should get off their behinds and get to the forums!
Let the clubs pay expenses, travel down Fri night, have a few beers/curry etc then attend the meetings.
Talk to other clubs etc and meet up FRI/SAT, that fires up the ammunition!
They can be very informative, you meet other trials orientated folk from around the uk and believe me you do learn something. Not always or all from the ACU but from other folk.

WE ARE the ACU, (if tha paid the £10) dont knock it if you aint asked your club/centre
to put an opinion/proposal forward! We must attend these forums.

I think that trials riders are by nature very relaxed sort of folk.
IE: they DONT CARE, as long as they have their ride on a Sat/Sun
THEY DONT CARE!
Dr Who and Santa put the flags in, Miss Marple will be sat at home to do the results.
Lord Muck does all the planning with the landowners, Bill & Ben sort out the flags,
Batman is in charge of the permit applications, and Donald does the rest (DUCK) that is.


Put a quid on the trial entry fee to pay for delegates to attend these meetings.
Maybe there will be more attendees.

It is STILL a cheap form of motorsport.
Club officials (normally the same few)
can not in this day and age be expected to do
it all for nothing then hear riders crying
over a £1 rise in the entry fee.

I do think a web based forum will turn into a free for all with
no specific questions being answered and the possibility of a fair bit of abuse.
YOU HAVE A FORUM as an ACU member, it is your club, then centre, then the ACU.

Remember the ACU is YOU, attend club meetings, centre meetings,
put your point/opinion there.

[Slapshot 3]

and Donald does the rest (DUCK) that is........it's nowt to do with me

Seriously

I said in another post a few months ago that what our favourite ubergeek has created here has changed the face of trials the a similar to what to the way TMX did 25+(?) years ago, therefore (credit to John that he has recognised this) this website and forum is the locus of trials in the UK primarily but to a certain extent globally as well.

If the ACU forum is to go ahead then perhaps, as a starter, John and the ACU could create a survey of sorts to get some kind of guide to where things stand at the moment and more importantly to get a guide to where the membership want to go, from there more detailed discussion might help the sport move forward in the way the membership and licence holder want it to. Like every organisation of it's sort, the ACU is only as strong as the people like ourselves who affiliate every year and within the UK ultimatley that is ACU though locally centres, MCUI Sacu etc.

I hope whatever happens works out and that Andy or whoever moderates it ensures that it's constructive. Our sport needs to move on not spend time slagging folk off.

Edited by Slapshot 3, 03 October 2006 - 10:41 PM.

[rabie]

I'm all for another forum, which is how shall i say "more proactive" edited to keep topic very specific and if necessary create new posts with the bits that go off topic so they can be tackled.

eg trials marking can have its own thread where it can all be discussed.

mods - obviously an impartial mod will be needed who understands the issues so they can separate out the posts which should be separated. also some sort of system of warning will be needed to; keep the posts on topic, show there is clear agenda and direction, and in the event of it degenerating preventing/stopping certain stirrers (remember the Chris_UK saga) from posting in that forum. obviously the mod process needs to be transparent so sceptic (eg heath) don't feel its an ACU praise place, while at the same time ACU people won't feel its an ACU bashing place of negativity

[Bumpy]

StuartC, on Oct 3 2006, 10:59 PM, said:

Personally I think delegates from clubs/centres should get off their behinds and get to the forums!
Let the clubs pay expenses, travel down Fri night, have a few beers/curry etc then attend the meetings.

Dont agree that delegates from clubs/centres should get expenses for beers and curries and a night in a hotel. Whats wrong with travelling down on the morning? Absolutely disgraceful.

[theused]

i agree with bumpy, why should we be paying for them to stay in hotels, eat fancy food and get drunk, when i go to a trial and visit the burger van after i dont go upto a member of the a.c.u and ask for the money to pay for my burger! we should be trying to do everything on a budget so more money can be put towards trials in general.

[John Collins]

Jeez - If we are not careful we will be doing exactly what JD predicted –organising a Forum to decide how to run a Forum!

Stuart C has already said a few of the things I was going to start with ( I suspect his comment about his Club attending a Forum and travelling the night before – beer & curry etc was rather tongue in cheek? – even if it was not – if his Club runs a load of events – which give a load of riders their sport – how they spend the money is purely for his Club to decide – it is the business of the members of this club – and while perhaps not a good example –I will at a later return to the subject of how money is spent. I have a feeling the principles involved here will possibly apply to a lot of other things – ie the way “ our” money is spent. In this case of course it was not “ our” money – it would be the money of his Club - and later I will attempt to show that taken to ACU level – all sorts of things can muddy the waters.

Now back to Forum. Some good points – and I accept that we all have a fear that it will just perhaps allow anonymous people to “have a go”? However – we should probably not judge until this actually happens – we may all be presently surprised?

I do not think we really need a moderator – as long as people try to stay on topic – and be constructive in criticism I see no real problem .

For me the one big thing that ACU has always suffered from – and it has been mentioned many times – is communication – and I see Trials Central as just one means of addressing this.

I think know my suggestion would be – that Andy sets up a Topic Heading – ACU discussion.?

I take some time out to explain a few things at the outset - as I am convinced that while some such as Rabie and StuartC and a few others now exactly how things work – I constantly get the impression ( without being insulting) that many have not got a clue – and this then leads to the misconceptions that drive me and other Committee members wild.

I believe – as someone has suggested – we start with some honest explanations – including answers to some awkward questions - and then move onto your ideas/questions/criticisms and suggestions for making our sport better.

I have to say at the outset – that decisions are never going to made in a Web based Forum – as they never are in a room based Forum. Under present structure this will always be done by appointed people ( although this system in itself – as Rabie has suggested is perhaps worthy of some debate)

What I hope – Trials Central readers would achieve is some honest answers to questions.

What I hope ACU T & E would achieve is to be made aware of people discontent/problems

What I hope we should all achieve is a sharing of ideas and views of others – even if we do not agree with them.

I will finish with the example of a post elsewhere ( Youth I think) from AS IOW.

Now – it will have escaped no-one that I passionately disagreed with some of AS’s post in the past – as in fact he has passionately disagreed with the ACU view.
However – here we have a post in the Youth Section – re A& B being included in with Brit Champ which is perfectly sensible, worthy of debate – and also already being queried by at least one potential Brit Champ Organiser. I ma not saying it is going to happen – but it is certainly worthy of debate – and certainly the T & E will debate it within next week or so

The point I am making is that I believe if we are all positive in our posts – and not tending to jump on bandwagons ( including me – boarding the ACU one) I do believe we can make it all a worth while exercise. I cannot promise I can always devote instant time to replies – but I think it is now over to Andy to set up a heading and we can give it a go.

Remember however – I do require the opportunity straight on a few matters and give a few history lessons ( yawn yawn!) at the start.,

[AS iow]

Thanks for that John, i think that at the end of the day we all want the same thing, but have different views on how to get them.
Just hope you could put a short reply to my proposal in the Youth section.
Having both aired are views, i hope we can now put our heads together for the benifit of trials in the future.

[AS iow]

Just to let you know that the IOWMCC would be intrested in running a British championship trial inc youth class at Cheverton chalk pit in June 2007.