[AtomAnt]

Whilst John Collins was explaining how the ACU coffers are spent in This thread, he suggested pulling this off into another thread.

I made the below comment

AtomAnt, on Oct 9 2006, 01:17 AM, said:

Whilst were on this subject and picking up on what Betarev3 said, wouldn't it be possible to have 2 registration cards of different colours. one of the normal orange at the said tenner and one in another colour for say £20 for those who want to donate an extra tenner to help you fund your youth program. Being purely optional, it means the people who want to help the youths have a way of doing it.

John made these comments..

John Collins, on Oct 9 2006, 02:16 AM, said:

....The question of collecting in £20 instead of £10 - sounds OK - but we have to watch we do not creat an administarative nightmare which may cost more to run than it collects. It was only two years ago after all that the whole business of licence/registration issue was in chaos - with people waiting months - this is now sorted I think. If we wished to pay £20 instead of £10 - whichever way you look at it - this is just a method of collecting donations toward a particular item - and there are much easier ways of doing it - eg just setting up a donation fund etc with those who wish to contributre sending in a donation - money " ring fenced" and not used for any other ACU purpose whartsoever - at end of each year full account of money in - and money out published for all to see on Web sites and Press ? ( another post topic I think)

Young riders are being trained/helped at the moment - possibly the way that is done may need looking at - and I know will be within next 14 days - so again watch this space.

I think the whole issue of helping youngsters is quite emotive - and there are often some very conflicting views - and there is a lot to debate. Good subject - not afraid to try - but again I think a separate thread needed.

I have found out myself that this subject is very emotive but lets get discussing it and hear what various interested parties feel about it

[John Collins]

Yes - I certainly feel that although emotive this is a good topic to discuss - and T & E will be doing so in the very near future ( even starting tomorrow).

Ones view tends to vary depending on ones experience and involvement with our better youth riders.

If you are involved with a youngster - either as parent/friend enthusiast for this element - you feel passionately that we should be supporting our better younger riders to the hilt to compete on the International stage. There will be the other view we have also seen in these posts - that many contributors to the pot are not too happy that a large proportion of their money goes this way.

As I think we will find with most topics - there will always be conflicting views - and it is almost always a question of trying to fins a workable balance. ( T & E have to do on practically every subject)

It is really a waste of time starting this discussion with too many comparisons with the Spanish /French or whatever turning up with the large lorries and a team of young riders. It is rather like comparing apples and pears. You cannot just take little bits in isolation - you would need to look at the whole financial structure of these Federations - how much sponsorship they receieved - how much their Clubs/Riders pay in, and importantly - how much Govt funding was involved. The latter is very important - as I am sure you will find this is where the money comes from.

In the UK - the Govt funding - at present and in past - for such projects - is a more or less ( in England at least) a big fat zero.

Have attempts been made to alter this - yes of course - we can fill T Central with the details/meetings/visits with Govt or more accurately Sports England on this topicc. Everyone will have a view or suggestion - I can only say that for years we have been asked to jump through various hoops to try to secure this - but then the goalposts are moved. Best chance was when Kate Howey was Sports minister - she was sensible and enthusisatic for our sports ( All M/Cycle events) - and we all thought progress was being made ( she went ariound TT on back of bike etc and visits to other events were set up) - then she was sacked.

Without dwelling too long on this - the Sports Council does not really recognise our Sport - in any form as a top - or even high priority - and there are instances where they have indicated they do not recognise MotorSpoprt at all. One letter I think a few years ago stated that it was " not a physical sport - as the bike/ car did all the work !

OK - please accept this is the situation at present - but practically every day efforts are being made at Rugby to reverse this - same in car world - but someone recently told me that until Olympics have been and gone there is little possibility of any great change.


So - we have to acept that any help/support we give out Young trials riders must come out of the pot of money we contribute to with out levies. No problem with that. We have been allocating a fair chunk for years.

I now think it best if we get away from theory and start to look at actual methods.

The first question is - assuming you are gouing to spend money on this - is which way is best?

You have a budget figure - it is never going to be hundreds of thousands - but will be a more realistic proportion of our money.

Some questions :

Should this " pot" be divided up into a lot of parts - eg 20 riders( men & women) all getting a little help for some home training and some support if they compete abroad ?

Or should just the better ones with the most potential - going by past/presnt results, Champ positions etc get a far bigger share - and leave the lesser lights to be trained at home in commercial schools etc and at Centre/Club level.

Or of course a combination ( which is what we have tried in past - but you often end up pleasing no-one)


So - over to you all for some views - lets not waste time talking about going out to find huge sponsorship deals etc - anyone feels like doing that feel free - but lets deal with what we have - and then hope for better

Which riders to support ? How do we select them? How many? What criteria? What events abroad UEM / FIM ? Do we pay for a coach to go with them ? What if lots of others ( some perhaps not so good) all decide to compete abraod - do we help them all -( often 20 plus riders there)

Over to you all

[fellonmelug]

I am all for supporting youth trials, but i feel where funding is available we should be using it at the grass routes ie helping clubs run the events and promoting the sport in a positive way to the wider world outside. A steady influx of young riders is what the sport needs. We must get the basics right before we can think of funding a select few

[ScorpaF]

As a parent of a rider who would like to compete in Europe I would obviously like to see some funding available for our riders to compete in these events.

I think that a subsidised method of transport to get the bikes and associated kit to the event thus enabling the riders and parents to fly would be both cost effective, less time consuming and fair to all. And no I don't mean we need the Italian 'factory' truck!

As things stand, sending 10 to 20 seperate vans from the UK to European rounds with each van costing around £1000+ (and a bit more if you're travelling 300 miles just to get to the channel) just can't be a sensible way of doing it.

Or as a minimum the ACU could refund our entry fees / minders fees and licence fees after the rider has ridden the event.

I think some funding should be made available to all riders willing to ride at European level with additional funding available to our hottest prospects.

[The Addict]

I hope this is going to be a very long thread with loads of posts and discussion. Just reading Fellons post I do think trying to promote the sport is a non-starter with the view of getting loads of youth riders to take the sport up, great if we could but I just cant see it.
If it isn’t getting bigger by now, I really don’t think it will increase much in the foreseeable future, from what I see the majority of kids in the sport are involved because Dad was or still is .Not really their choice to take it up off their own back.. I may though be well off the mark here but it’s what I have seen in the past and I don’t mean Dads make them do it, but the idea is there to start with. I know many do tell parents they want to try Trials as I did, but my idea started from a mate who was competing already, I would never had come across the sport else.
We've had a World champ for many years, but has it really increased the Kids at trials, and although not shown as much as I would have liked the Indoor World championship does get TV coverage but does nt seem to have increased the youth numbers in any great number if at all.
I would rather see money spent on the lads and lasses we currently have in the sport and the ones that will inevitably try it in the future as apposed to trying to get loads more in. We have plenty of talent already in the UK but we must help them as best as possible from grass roots right up to the World Championships.
Not an easy answer, but whatever is decided It must be fair all the way through.
I would like to single out certain riders for more help but that job should be left to personal sponsors and manufacturers and not us, everyone would have to nominate a rider, Wont happen.
Maybe anyone here who has kids riding currently can post what would make their lives easier, may not even be financial but the more posts the better.
Our youth is our future for the sport, making things easier for them and parents has to be a good thing.
It may help if John could give us an aproximate figure for how many licence holders there are in trials in any one year and aprox how much the ACU receive in levy money from trials, or even better the number of Levy's collected in the year as well.
This information should make it easier for ideas for the future as it should give an indication how much or little could be generated to help youth riders.

This post has been edited by Betarev3: 09 October 2006 - 07:45 PM

[dan]

ScorpaF, on Oct 9 2006, 06:55 PM, said:

As things stand, sending 10 to 20 seperate vans from the UK to European rounds with each van costing around £1000+ (and a bit more if you're travelling 300 miles just to get to the channel) just can't be a sensible way of doing it.

Reading this it seems that the ACU (or even someone else with the time and insight) could provide organisational support here, even if financial support isn't available. As you say, sending 10 to 20 seperate vans is a little inpractical and overly costly. Could it not be beneficial to combine the efforts of all those wanting to ride the Euros and in pooling everyones resources save everyone money. This way perhaps a single truck to take the bikes and kit could be supported, with riders (or their supporters) taking it in turns to drive the truck to the destination, while the others are free to get there by whatever method is cheapest. I'm not sure that's entirely the best method, but try to focus on the concept instead :)

We all know by now that the ACU doesn't have enough money to offer any serious financial aid to up and coming riders, so why not make use of it's organisational abilities so that we can at least make things a little easier on the riders and their families. Even if the ACU as it stands doesn't have time/resources to do it, perhaps the people who stand to benefit from such an arrangement could organise it themselves?

[no1]

Im with scorpef on this one any help will be some help
You cant stop with just the youth as Alexz Wigg will not be classed as a youth after this year and at the moment his team needs all the help thay can get, next year he will do well but he will be at a big disadvantage because he has to do the junior cup on a 125 so his results might not look that good but the year after he will be on a bigger bike and he will start winning again not to say he wont win on a 125.
Then you have the youth there are two classes, in this there are the elite and theres the very good riders help them all but the elite should be helped and pushed hard.
There sould be training for the two different classes not from national riders but from world class riders ie Graham Jarvis,Sam Connor
If this is all done as the results show at the moment this country could rule the world ie Alexz Wigg,Sam Haslem,Jack Challanor and Ben Morphett without funding and tuition this wont happen.

This post has been edited by no1: 09 October 2006 - 11:43 PM

[Nigel Dabster]

No ! how much help have the ACU given you and the other lads this year, the Academy thing etc?

i.e. what has the funding been so far etc?

[no1]

None and Ben is not in the acadamy

[Timp]

I'm all for helping riders progress in trials but getting them around europe is not a priority in my view.
It would create more problems than it is worth.
If its young riders only what would be the cut off point?17,18,19,20,21 years old etc. Why is the support just for young ones? Seems a bit of age discrimination here!

Would there be a minimum level of rider ability or can anyone have the benefits?

What if some lads are stopping to do 1 trial one weekend while others are stopping on for 2.

Where would the spare bikes and all the other stuff you fill your van with go. It would need a big transporter.
Where does everyone stay when they havn't got their van there?. More expense.

Seems to me totally unworkable in reality.

If the ACU was to a commit a lot more money to youth support than at present I would argue that it is wasted by supporting european travel.

I would rather see more money put into helping clubs buy land in Britain which would help a lot more riders!

Mark T

[Old trials fanatic]

Why does everybody with kids in this country seem to think they should be entitled to receive "special help"?

You have kids because you want them. If you cant afford to have them then dont. If you cant afford to support them in their chosen sport, not just trials either this applies to children in ALL forms of sport, then tough. Thats life.

Motorsport especially has always been such. You want sponsorship then bloody well go out and work for it and stop sitting on your backside waiting for "someone" to come to you with the crock of gold.

We seem very happy in this country to keep throwing money at the problem. Personally i dont see there is a problem. Who gives a toss if there is a British World Champion or not? Did Trials overall massively benefit from having one? Did Trials benefit at all from having one?

If you have a budding "Wunderkint" in your family then do what Jenson Buttons dad did. Remortguage your house, sell your car, stop having holidays. YOU FUND HIM / HER. Market them to businesses. SELL THEM but for christs sake stop expecting the rest of the sport to fund your "little johnnys" climb up the slippery pole to success. You want the rewards then YOU do something about it.

The ACU cant and IMHO shouldnt afford it.

Know that wont be popular but still feel it needs saying.

I'll go and hide in the shelter now

This post has been edited by Old trials fanatic: 10 October 2006 - 08:24 PM

[The Addict]

Timp, it may be worth having a separate fund as part of a scheme aimed at helping fund travel and entry for those youths who want to go to Europe. To make it fair this would have to be a flat rate every rider gets the same.
Agree with you about the transporter, a no go idea, like you say where would all the stuff go and there’s nothing worse than forgetting things from your own vehicle when away and logistically impossible, Better to help fund the travel to get there and back. Hopefully this may encourage more youths to go abroad or rather help the parents pay for it. It may just make the difference between not going because it is just a little bit too expensive to a level that is feasible sometimes, great experience for the lads and lasses.
Not too sure about clubs buying land, not so much about the finance in doing so but more the Not in my back yard brigade who are getting much worse towards us all. Great if the ACU could help with securing existing sites, i am sure their help could save the dwindling trials areas around the country we already have but may not in the near future.
As I said above it would be helpful if John could give us some figures to work from so a few ideas could be budgeted for throughout the youth sport. One of my mates spent years travelling up and down the country with his lad on very, very tight budgets, still don’t know how he managed it for so long. I am sure any help he could have had would have been like Christmas at the time, even a free entry would have made a big difference in those days. I am sure there are plenty of Mums and Dads out there who can understand that feeling.

[The Addict]

Old Trials Fanatic,

Do you have kids?
I have seen many parents give up so much for their kids in trials and most dont complain about it, the remark about Jenson Button is abit different mainly because the rewards that can be gained from top level car formulas is staggering, worth remortgaging the house for if the talent is there, not the same in trials.
The Euro riders especially the Spanish are getting much more help than our youths and adults mainly down to sponsorship, this is throughout all bike sport, road racing etc. May not be from there governing body but big sponsors love bikes in spain. How can our youth compete with that without abit of extra help.
I dont think anyone is asking for special help, just a bit of help and support to keep going, this may not be financial as you think. No1 has stated trials training for riders, and Timp has stated securing land non of which are direct finance.
Who gives a **** if we have a world champ or not, mmmmmmm most of us I think, we are very proud of what Dougie has done and is still doing, plenty of kids and us look up to him and drive the sport forward.
Your right to make your post though, every body needs a point of view to make things fair, hope many more will post here in th next few weeks
You may need to get a bigger hat or shelter

This post has been edited by Betarev3: 10 October 2006 - 08:52 PM

[Kinell]

Timp, on Oct 10 2006, 08:57 PM, said:

I'm all for helping riders progress in trials but getting them around europe is not a priority in my view.
It would create more problems than it is worth.

What if some lads are stopping to do 1 trial one weekend while others are stopping on for 2.

Where would the spare bikes and all the other stuff you fill your van with go. It would need a big transporter.
Where does everyone stay when they havn't got their van there?. More expense.

Seems to me totally unworkable in reality.

Mark T

Hmm, I agree that it wouldn't be clear cut and completely free of problems but I don't think it would be 'totally unworkable' either...

Without naming names, I've heard that somebody is thinking about providing a truck that could hold up to 15-20 bikes plus the usual spares, tools and riding kit. The idea behind it is that the rider, minder and whoever else can jump on one of the many cheap flights to Europe and doss down in a cheap <mention of this company is not permitted on Trials Central> for the weekend without having to worry about driving, ferry crossings, breaking down, getting lost etc.

The truck would be available to any promising young rider irrespective of the brand of bike he or she rides, it would be fitted with a full 3-sided awning etc. I'm pretty sure that the different factory teams would help out with technical/mechanical help when needed, as they would be helping out one of their own so to speak.

If this does happen sometime in the future, the truck would be bought and paid for and the riders would probably be expected to chip in for the running costs etc. I've previously heard horror stories of folk that travelled to Norway in 04 or 05 and the ferry crossing alone was £500 to £1,000

It's got to be worth thinking about at the very least

[Old trials fanatic]

Betarev3 I'm having an extension built to the underground bunker as we speak

No i havent got kids. I wish i had but the wife couldnt have any and that was that. I was brought up to believe that you never asked for charity and everything you had in life was yours because you worked for it. Thats why i had two paper rounds, before and after school, plus a Saturday job at the local supermarket unloading lorries and scrubbing / washing floors. All so i could afford my first Bultaco Sherpa 250 slimline in 1971. Plus i used to fetch groceries, wash cars etc for prople to help fund it. My parents had no money to help so i did it myself. Not a sob story just some background facts.

OK i was being a bit reactionary but i hear the same thing at work about their kids football, tai kuondo, horse riding, sailing etc etc etc

My other point, and i am not decrying Dougie efforts and success in any way, was how EXACTLY have the Trials i and many others ride in every Sunday ACTUALLY benefited from Dougies sucess? How would the Trials that we all ride in benefit from "whoevers" future sucesses? Would it be good value for money for the ACU funds to spend them on funding some youths to ride trials bikes?

Question. Business people, sucessful ones at least, are not slow to recognise a good opportunity when they see one. So why are all these talented young, or old, Trials riders not buried by offers of sponsorship and funding? Why are they not plastered with advertisers logos?

Probably because said business people do recognise an opportunity when they see one and this is most definately NOT it. What would their business gain from sponsoring a rider? Very little if anything.

So why should the ACU be any different? John has already explained that the licence fee is virtually totally swallowed up by sending out a licence and handbook so they make naff all out of Trials and i for one would NOT want to see an increase in the licence fee to help fund up and coming "superstars". Saying that if people want to contribute then they should feel free to send as much money as they can possibly afford and more to the riders concerned. I am sure they could find the addresses if they really wanted to. So why havent they?

I know i am in the minority of one on this and that a British World Champion would be the saviour of Trials in this country so would be a price worth paying. I just dont believe it myself.

Thanks for recognising my right to an opinion even if it does conflict with everybody elses.

This post has been edited by Old trials fanatic: 10 October 2006 - 09:32 PM