20 replies to this topic

[Old trials fanatic]

Now apart from the Pre65 elegibility issue which i have voiced before, which incidentally the ACU apparently have no position on?????, one issue that is affecting all of us whether you ride modern or like me "Classic Pre65" trials is the lack of observers. Almost all the events i have ridden in this year, my first year back at trials since 1985, have had a shortage of observers with usually 50% of the sections unmanned. Last Sunday there were only 3 yes 3 observers. Now to me this ruins the event. I DO NOT blame the organisers, who put a hell of a lot of effort into the event, I DO NOT blame the ACU or anybody else for that matter. I was just wondering if the ACU had a stance on the provision and encouragement of observers without which all the discussions about youth funding, license fees, whatever is all a bit immaterial as without observers there are no Trials. Well not Trials as i percieve them.

Our Road Racing chums have the BRMC and other bodies. Isnt it about time a corps of observers was formed? A bit like referees for Sunday league and club football matches?

I know my views are not that popular amongst some of the regulars on this site but i do feel strongly that this is a very serious issue affecting our sport and that the ACU sould have a view and possibly take a lead on the provision of and training / recruitment of observers.

Surely things can not go on like this for much longer? I know that some areas dont have any problem finding more than enough observers to man all the sections but that is not the case in my centre.

As someone else said in another post "we are the ACU" so that is why i have posted this here. I sincerely hope i have not broken any rules by doing so and i am sure Atom Ant or Andy will soon remove my post if i have.

So John are the ACU aware of the dire situation in some centres and do they have a view ?

Thank you

Edited by Old trials fanatic, 12 October 2006 - 06:09 PM.

[AtomAnt]

Old trials fanatic, on Oct 12 2006, 07:07 PM, said:

.... I sincerely hope i have not broken any rules by doing so and i am sure Atom Ant or Andy will soon remove my post if i have.

Of course you haven't, but you sound like a wiley ol' character and I just gotta meet you at a trial sometime for some friendly banter

My Dad lives in Derby too

[Old trials fanatic]

Look forward to that. You can usualy find me puffing and panting and generally struggling around the course at any Peak Classic or Midland Classic Trials which are the two clubs i mostly ride or observe for.

Edited by Old trials fanatic, 12 October 2006 - 09:38 PM.

[Timp]

Old trials fanatic, what you lack at the trials you do are parents who observe. Can't imagine many young ones wanting to ride old bikes so you will have to go about it a different way.
I remember hearing about a pre 65 club that if short of observers they put all the riders numbers in a hat (excluding those who had allready provided an observer) and picked out enough names to man the sections. You then observe or find someone to take your place, then you get your entry fee back and don't get put in the hat at the next trial. Not sure how it worked but sounds like it might work.

Mark T

[scorpa3]

stick the boards out and observe each other. Saves a lot of stress for the hard working officials.

[The Addict]

OTF, nothing wrong with posting any views you have here, whether you think it will p*** people off or not, its what this forum is for.

Been to a couple of trials in the past where the club has 5 sections in the morning, then a short dinner break and the next five sections or so in the afternoon. Works really well, and you only need half the observers or gives the option of one lot of observers doing the morning and another group in the afternoon.
Personally I would like to see observers being paid in some way, may just tip the balance and we may get more trials with 20 sections rather than 8 -10 and that should increase entries and thus more money for the sport through levy's.
More sections more work for clubs, but more entries and members may open up more helpers into the club at the same time.

If as above the trial is split into two halves, 8-10 in the morning and the others in the early afternoon could increase clubs entries quite abit. I did not ride in a very local trial last Sunday mainly due to knowing it would be 8-10 sections and four laps, at least two of the sections would have been subs as well. Shame on me for maybe not going to observe instead but thats part of the problem as well. Most of us dont get as much time as we would like to ride and observing means no ride on a Sunday. Maybe if riders observed at a trial and the payment was made by letting the observers who wanted to have a ride at the venue afterwards it may encourage some to take it up. Most trials around here will not allow riding after the event has finished, but if observers could stay on for a few hours I would certainly give it a go.

Pete, if you see Ralph marking for me on the 29th at Saintbury take the board off him! he will be giving me fives all day

[John Collins]

I see no problem with the question , and in fact it is a question that has often been placed on the Agenda at the Rugby Forum in Rugby - the cancelled one - and there was actually a letter sent asking us to debate it one the day - from someone who was atending - who suggested much the same as your idea - a National register.

This was tried many years ago ( quite a lot) - really for Brit Champ - to try to get a sort of " standard" if you like.

There were very few - if any takers I seem to recall.

It is a huge problem - I am not sure the ACU has any answere - and because of the geographical implications - I am not sure a central register would work - although if it deemed worth trying - I think we would be willing to try. Making a register of any sort - tends to work if the people on it are for eaxmple getting paid - ie register of plumbers. Not sure if it would work with volunteers - but who knows?

I do think different areas have different methods - we have tried an Observer draw - where each club at start of season puts in £50 ( I think) - Centre put in same - and at end of season every Observer who has signed on at any event during year goes into hat. We do it ion ticket/form basis - so if you have observed twice - your have 1 ticket in hat - if you have observed 10 times you have 10 tickets in hat - and therefore more chance of winning the £150 or so.

It works reasonably well - and in a big Centre the prize xcould be quite large ( holiday abroad/ trip to World round etc)

Other people are already posting some good ideas - and perhaps we can all learn from these - which aftyer all is what a forum should be about - exchange of views.

ACU wise - I am certainly open to sugestions - as I know all T & E members would be - as I know they all run events and have same problems - and I also know we all observe quite a few times each year.

More ideas please.

[Old trials fanatic]

Thanks Betarev3. I agree about the observers should perhaps get paid. There are a couple of people who regularly turn up who dont have anybody riding but have a love for the sport. They are both in their pensionable years, i wouldnt guess at their ages as i put my foot in it often enough as it is, and though they do it for love the fuel etc has to come from somewhere. As has been said Classic and Pre65 trials suffer possibly more than modern trials as there are few youngsters who would want to ride an old British clunker so no kids = no parents.

I deeply feel though that an "observer corps" is something that could and should be considered at some point and if so that the ACU should most definately be involved in some capacity as the observers are as much a part of Trials as the riders.

I have never liked the idea of just putting the boards out and leting people pick them up and mark themselves. It just doesnt feel "right". I know i'm an old git and the world has moved on etc etc

I always make sure that i observe for the clubs that i ride for at at least one of their trials a year, just me putting something back, but as i usually ride only a couple of times a month i would be willing to observe at other clubs events but my finances are tight also and i wonder about paying out for fuel to stand sometimes in the pouring rain and wind on a bleak moorside for nowt. Perhaps if there were some recompense from the organising club, especially the ones i have no intention of riding at, then i too would be more willing to help them out. I cant be on my own in feeling this surely?

I still feel that the ACU should have a view or discuss the issue of a lack of especially consistent trained observers who are fully conversant with current ACU rules and regulations. For instance how many observers know of or apply rule TSR22l ? Kicking rocks out of sections Mr Thorpe (Dave) ??? I wasnt aware of it till i read the handbook. Thanks John. See there is a point in sending it out.

Why couldnt there be a list of approved and ACU accredited observers who the organisers of ACU events could contact and pre book to attend their event thereby eliminating the uncertantity of trying to find "willing" people on the day? After all the organiser of the Trial has put many hours into laying out sections only to have them potentially unused due to a lack of observers.

OK i know people would sooner argue at length about funding a future World Champion, i've already said my bit on that subject, but if there are no observers how is that future World Champion going to hone his or her skills?

Or is it because it affects Pre65 more than modern it doesnt matter?

Possibly

Sorry John you must have posted while i was typing. I'm a bit slow wot wiv only using two fingers like

Edited by Old trials fanatic, 12 October 2006 - 09:30 PM.

[The Addict]

OTF, low observer numbers effects many clubs, some more than others but i have been to trials where only half the boards are manned. Makes for a bad day in my view.
I would definitely like to see observers being paid for standing out in the rain and snow, getting cold, and some instances having their judgement and parental details questioned. Anybody here like to post how much they would be willing to pay extra on their entry fee to help make sure all the sections are manned at a trial. As you said if at least travel expenses could be subsidised it may make the difference between a section manned or not.
Don’t think the ACU need to get involved in dishing out any funds to observers though, leave that to the clubs, it will save on ACU admin etc.

[Old trials fanatic]

"Anybody here like to post how much they would be willing to pay extra on their entry fee to help make sure all the sections are manned at a trial. As you said if at least travel expenses could be subsidised it may make the difference between a section manned or not."

Ok most of the Trials i ride at are £10 or £12 per ride. I would happily pay an extra £5 if that meant all the sections were manned. OK i know it's not a lot but times this by 40 riders and you get an extra £200 divide by 10 thats £20 per observer which would go some way to paying their diesel and a cuppa.

Midland Classic already refund the riders entry for anyone who brings an observer. Thats £10 refund but they still cant regularly man more than half the sections at a trial. A lot of the observers who do come dont have anybody riding so no refund


"Don’t think the ACU need to get involved in dishing out any funds to observers though, leave that to the clubs, it will save on ACU admin etc."

No me neither never meant that the ACU should fund the "Observer corps" in any way that should be the clubs responsability. The ACU however should make sure that they had a current copy of the handbook and could possibly issue them with a card, similar to our license, as acreditation. Something to be proud of and might just get people feeling "involved" and appreciated?

You never know

Edited by Old trials fanatic, 12 October 2006 - 09:56 PM.

[Kinell]

Old trials fanatic, on Oct 12 2006, 10:54 PM, said:

"Anybody here like to post how much they would be willing to pay extra on their entry fee to help make sure all the sections are manned at a trial. As you said if at least travel expenses could be subsidised it may make the difference between a section manned or not."

Paying Observers for standing out in all sorts of lousy weather has got to be the way forward. I'm not 100% convinced that it would generate a long queue of eager volunteers but I'm sure it would make the organisers job a damn sight easier.

I would be quite happy to pay extra on top of my entry fee as I've seen how frustrated and p****d off the Club officials get when they are forced to pull up a couple of sections due to a lack of Observers. They have taken the time to plot a section out and end up being forced to bin it

Saying that, I've only observed once in the 4 years that I've been riding trials (shame on me! ) although I have helped my home Club out in other ways. If Observers were paid in the future, I wouldn't accept payment purely out of principle in that as a rider, I should put something back into the club.

Something that might work is the rule that every rider must observe at least once per year. If it's a Club Championship round or something then the rider is given a bye or awarded points based on the average points scored throughout the year?

[The Addict]

Five quid was more than I had expected for a first offer, but yer I could live with that for more sections or more manned ones. £20 is nt a great deal but it would certainly get the boards picked up alot quicker, may even encourage some to bring people with them as well.
Yes i do think it is good to have some sort of regognised group for observers but mmmmmmmmm the card thing, how much would it cost, and how much to get it off and running. Problem there being it may cost too much to organise and run and pull the already limited funds out of the sport. You could nt really expect the observers to pay for it themselves like the riders do for theirs.
Trials compared to most of the other bike disciplines is very cheap against the time you get competing in a trial. A typical Road Race entry fee could be well over £100 plus for aprox 20 minutes of track time and does nt even represent the majority of the cost of doing the event.
A observer fee will effect some people than others but hopefully those who compete more will gain the most from more sections and more manned boards.
As i suggested earlier, being able to ride after the event could also ensure more observers, I would prefer this than the £20 as I am sure others would as well.

As I cant see any way the ACU can be involved in this due to admin fees it will be up to the clubs to sort it out, any clubs out there willing to post their comments would really help

Edited by Betarev3, 12 October 2006 - 11:06 PM.

[scorpa3]

We give Observers a free entry for a rider. I don't think this in its self attracts any more observers but it certainly makes it easier for me to approach people when I am offering £12 worth of entry as an incentive.

Unfortunately the observer issue has become so big that I have given up worrying at our club trials. At the start, if we are short I simply put the boards out at the sections ends/begins and tell the riders to observe each other. Although this is far from perfect, it is better than scrapping sections.

Like OTF, I too rode in a trial this Sunday where there were only three Observers for 15 sections. Scrapping the sections would have cancelled the trial, so we just had to get on with it.

A big thanks to those who did observe, especialy the two chaps who did two sections each, despite having to walk backwards and forwards between the two for each rider. Now that's dedication.

I must add, the trail and the sections were brilliant. The officials had done an excellent job and were in no way to blame for the observer problem.

[MartinM]

A couple of ideas that work down in this area.

Similar to Scorpa 3's idea....on the entry form offer riders a free entry if you bring an observer with you, around here there are a bunch of regular observers that turn up, so you are usually looking for an extra 2 or 3.

Secondly, enter all observers into a raffle with half a dozen prizes, with the draw to take place after the event.....usually the only times during the year when my father hassles me to ride because he wants to observe !!!

Martin

[scorpa3]

If we could find an organisation... say Army Cadets, who would be intersted in being Observers for a decent donation to their club funds that would be ideal.

Supply seven or eight Observers, five times a year and recieve £400. That would only be about £1 per rider on the entry fee