11 replies to this topic

[Telecat]

Youth A + B – 8 rounds

18th February Yeadon-Guiseley
4th March Cheadle
18th March Otter Vale MCC
12th August Kent Youth
26th August Abergavenny Auto
9th September Isle of Wight MCC
14th October EMRA
28th October Bradford + District

Youth C + D – 8 rounds

22nd April Scarborough & District MCC
20th May IOW MCC
9th June Richmond MC (Yorks) Ltd
14th July North Derbyshire Youth MC
22nd July South Shropshire MC
11th August Kent Youth
25th August Abergavenny Auto
13th October Mansfield Maun MCC


I gather this is a draft document and may change. on The A & B National front Cheadle, EMRA and Bradford return while Scarborough, Richmond, (sadly), and Surrey have "lost" their rounds this Year. AS IOW will like the earlier date I should imagine despite the move of the C & D Round as The Indoor will be very viable as every A & B Rider worth their salt will be there(It's a great idea and would be a sad loss). The date is away from the nearest C & D So they could attend if invited. I Believe EMRA will be in the East Midlands which gives us that round in the Middle of England although the Yeadon-Guiseley and Bradford rounds remain more Central for the UK as a whole. The C & D seem to be a good spread. Two Yorkshire clubs two Midland clubs and the remaining rounds in the south and Wales.

All in all it looks like a good set of rounds given the limits on number of rounds in a year.

Edited by Telecat, 11 November 2006 - 12:55 AM.

[AS iow]

Can't understand why there is a four month gap in the A/B championship calender, best part of the British youth trials scene is the social side, camping the night before, a few drinks and a few laughs . Great in the summer but not so much fun in Feb March Sept & October
IOW wanted a late June date so they could use their best bit of land on the Island but was refused without reason Its also a crime that Richmond hav'nt been given an A/B round while others with a less than perfect reputation have.

[Nigel Dabster]

I think that there is a rotation policy operating where those that missed out return, so Richmond and surrey will have rounds in 2008???

[AS iow]

Nigel Dabster, on Nov 14 2006, 06:31 AM, said:

I think that there is a rotation policy operating where those that missed out return, so Richmond and surrey will have rounds in 2008???

So how come some clubs have A/B rounds every year

[PERCE]

AS iow, on Nov 13 2006, 10:30 PM, said:

Can't understand why there is a four month gap in the A/B championship calender, best part of the British youth trials scene is the social side, camping the night before, a few drinks and a few laughs . Great in the summer but not so much fun in Feb March Sept & October
IOW wanted a late June date so they could use their best bit of land on the Island but was refused without reason Its also a crime that Richmond hav'nt been given an A/B round while others with a less than perfect reputation have.

Funnily enough you got the date, 9th September, which Richmond wanted. We also are stuck for certain dates on which we can use land due to lambing & grass cutting dates etc.

[Andy]

I've moved this topic into the ACU Discussion forum as it seems more relevant there and may get some feedback from John.

[AS iow]

Funnily enough you got the date, 9th September, which Richmond wanted. We also are stuck for certain dates on which we can use land due to lambing & grass cutting dates etc.
[/quote]

Thats interesting, so would Richmound like to swap it's C/D round date with IOW A/B date, seems everyone would be happier then Maybe we could make a joint appeal to the ACU.

Have also noticed that Abergavenny Date will clash with Y.M.S.A. 3 day again, as Richmound did last year, so hope they can sort that one out soon.

Edited by AS iow, 14 November 2006 - 01:26 PM.

[PERCE]

AS iow, on Nov 14 2006, 01:22 PM, said:

Have also noticed that Abergavenny Date will clash with Y.M.S.A. 3 day again, as Richmound did last year, so hope they can sort that one out soon.

That only got sorted out last year because Richmond pushed for it, seems senseless standing on the toes of another organisations long standing date.

[PERCE]

AS iow, on Nov 14 2006, 01:22 PM, said:

Thats interesting, so would Richmound like to swap it's C/D round date with IOW A/B date, seems everyone would be happier then Maybe we could make a joint appeal to the ACU.

This restriction refered to the land we used for the A/B round, the C/D venue is different as it's used for shooting so it would have to be checked for a date swap.

[agiow]

That would be fantastic if the ACU and Richmond Club would do that.
We’ve been trying for the last couple of years to bring the top youth’s
riders in the country to this venue for an absolutely top class youth trial.
It’s by far the largest quarry on the Island. We held the 1st Round of the
British Ladies Championship there this year just ask any of them what it’s like.
Unfortunately the club has only a small window of opportunity to use this venue
from mid January to the end of June. We asked for a June date this year and got offered
the September date .The IOWMCC appreciate very much to have been chosen to host
a round of the A & B youth championship again next year when other club’s missed
out but our club does like to use different venues as much as possible to add to the variety
of the type of trials we put on. The club appreciates the efforts made by parents and riders
alike who make the trip to the Isle of Wight and in return the club wants to put on the best
trial in can with the resources it has available to it

Regards
agiow

[John Collins]

I was asked to comment on Youth Champ dates 2007. In fact this is part of the problem – you cannot look just at Youth Championship dates – you must look at the whole calendar in its entirety. With this in mind it as much use as a chocolate fireguard for people to say why is there this gap or why cannot this go there etc, you have to look at the whole calendar – more on this later.

Let me say at the outset, this is one topic which will have limited input from me. I will not be justifying why this or that event is on this or that date, or why such and such a club did or did not get a round – not now, not ever. It is not appropriate to debate matters which affect Clubs and Centres in such a manner – all these Clubs and Centres of course are fully entitled to write in query matters and are welcome to do so, but such discussion with outside third parties is not going to happen.

I will however try to lay down the principles of the calendar, and those interested may then see some methodology in what can I admit seem like madness. I will also in this instance try to place some emphasis on Youth A & B as this seems to be causing most concern , and frankly is the area which has caused us most work and headache.


I have discussed before the workings of T & E Committee etc – and here is an excellent example which you can try in the comfort of your own home. Look at the final ACU 2007 calendar – and as an exercise try to come up with a better solution bearing in mind the points I will now relate. Also in particular remember that Clubs cannot always go on a convenient date for your exercise, as there are many factors involved, some of which have already been pointed out.

Firstly let me explain that sometime in the distant summer months we write out to all National organisers with a request for their desired dates and obviously applications for any Championships they may be interested in.
We stressed that owing to the ever bulging calendar, especially in these days of increased International events and participation by our riders, that desired dates are not always possible – and Clubs need to be flexible. We fully understand and appreciate that Clubs are limited because of land availability etc.

My own club which run a Brit Solo round seem to have moved from pillar to post – often not at our wishes.
The St David’s is named after the patron Saint of Wales – and the nearest Sunday to March 1st ( St David’s day) was the always the original concept. When we were running in August things had moved a little!

Having said all this many clubs is flexible and can send in several dates. This is not the b and ends all of it but it does help. Others are limited to perhaps one date, others just send in one or two dates , and then when unsuccessful inform us that they could have run on lots of others but did not put them down etc.
Remember I am talking about the whole calendar – not just A & B.

Now to some principle and philosophy. We believe that where possible – (and there will always be exceptions to all I say) we should not make it impossible or difficult for a British rider to win a British Championship.
Therefore in principle as far as Brit Solo and Youth A & B Championships are concerned and also Ladies Champ, we do not wish to clash with World and UEM Championships. If a rider who is contesting World Champ – such as Dougie decide not to contest Brit Champ – this is fine, it is their choice. If however we put the Brit Champ on same date – the choice would be gone; if you wanted to do well in World or UEM you would have to forsake Brit Champ. I talk Trials here – as we have a problem with this principle in Enduro at present. We also do not clash Brit Solo Champ with the Novogar rounds, as many ride both.

The FIM and consequently the UEM Championships are finalised after congress – which unfortunately is in Oct and it is usually November before we can really start. We then have the available dates for Brit Solo Champ – and we attempt to place these in. Not as easy as it sounds – because obviously we have to try to take into account a few events such as Scott, Scottish, Manx, and Lakes etc. Start counting on the old fingers and you will start to see the available weekends are already starting to diminish.
In 2007 we also have a British World Championship, and later in the IOM a Women’s World Championship as well as TDN for Women and Men, so this year a further weekend out- obviously many youngsters will wish to see these, and we also do not wish to diminish the organisers desire to get as many there as possible.

Next we actually need to return to that old chestnut – the Trials Forum at Rugby!
We all know that 2006 was cancelled – and with it the chance to discuss some of the principles that need to be discussed in relation to the Youth Championships. In 2005 when the Forum was held, Youth matters were on the agenda and received a fair airing. Those present had not been happy with the 05 calendar, and asked if possible that we try to spread the dates out (easier said than done but we did try in 06).
There was a definite request that Youth A & B should not clash with Brit Solo Champ.

One applicant who did not get a round this year pointed out that this may not be fair – as only the top few Youth riders are eligible. I can understand this, but, we cannot keep on about helping our youngsters and then deprive the top ones of the chance to mix it on the Expert course of the Brit Champ. Additionally, some of these riders are requesting more opportunity than just the A & B rounds and for the top ones the Brit Solo Champ provides these additional rides.

Please also remember that some clubs who run an A & B also run a Brit Solo Champ and this complicates matters. The parents who are involved in taking offspring to the Youth rounds are often heavily involved in the running of the Solo Champ. I offer the example of the Mitchell. Put an A & B round on the same day
(Which we did in 05 – oops!) And you can lose the Clerk of Course etc for the Solo – not to mention the Sec and a good few observers.

So at present we attempt to keep Youth A & B, Brit Solo and World and UEM on separate dates.

When we started to finalise things for 07 last week – thankfully there were a few A & B rounds that were not affected but after this the opportunity for Youth dates was limited to about 5 dates I think.
We immediately set about informing the remaining applicants of these available dates. While on this topic I must point bout that in all correspondence with Clubs – some are brilliant and get back to us immediately. With some we wait and wait, and often of course they need to get onto to other Club members/ officials – a luxury not always possible with sometimes only days to finalise the whole thing.

Just in case you thought it was all fairly easy so far – let us look at a few other factors.

I have mentioned we are trying to spread the dates. People have asked why we do not fill May/June up more.

Answer – School exams – and for many A/B riders a vital time. Possible that weekend away is a refreshing change from swotting and projects – but the sometimes long drive home and inevitable late Sunday nights are not so desirable in our opinion and we feel the responsible attitude is to limit events a little at this time.

All this was relayed to potential organisers of 06 rounds when we did calendar last year.

Perhaps we need to look at how rounds are selected? Easy answer will always be the best rounds?
But that can be subjective and as any practicing Clerk of Course knows –there seems to be a very fine line these days between getting it right or slightly wrong, and the British weather can play a rather large part. Not quite so easy then to determine who always runs the best, and not really desirable to automatically drop a round which has had a slip up. We are fortunate that the standard is now good (it would probably be a lot easier for us calendar wise if there were some diabolical rounds thankfully this is not the case.)

Even then one has to look at things a little closer. If for example we have a good club who run excellent rounds and there appears to be a date that they can run on - we still have to look at the bigger picture a little.
If there is a well established National (adult) possibly just 30 miles away – what affect will this have?
Perhaps nothing on the A & B – but will the other National – while not losing entries of course, still find it difficult to get Observers as they are all in the A & B – who to blame ? Good ole ACU?

Equally if you have say 12 applicants to fit into the remaining 5 spaces – logic says that there are going to be disappointments. This is not because they run bad rounds (the exact opposite in many cases) It is certainly not because we do not like them (again exact opposite in many cases) – but it is because of the reasons and difficulties expressed above.
The Youth people at this last forum also asked us to try to sometimes combine A & B with a C & D on same weekend as they often have children in both groups. This we try to do in some cases, and as we are often shorter on C & D applicants – those who offer a C/D and A & B combination can sometimes gain some advantage in the dates/selection

It is a fact that some Clubs seem to be successful on a fairly regular basis – the date situation is often the main factor here – or the case that they are able to move around more. Some just seem lucky to fall away from World and Brit Champ, while others seem to opt for less congested periods of the year.
We do try to rotate events around – but if you look at the maths it is certainly not an exact science, especially as all the other factors I have mentioned keep ballsing things up.


Finally – we received criticism this year from one unsuccessful applicant that too many events were Northern and upper Midland based. This is already contrary to some of the views expressed in this Forum.

I thought about this. If we take a line through the Midlands (hence the name?) I think you will find that looking at the 8 rounds of A & B Champ we have 4 above the line and 4 below?

Finally Finally. I accept the post that desires that the summer months are a great opportunity for the social aspect with a few drinks etc. I have always supported this concept (often to the detriment of my riding)
I have to say here however that the escapades of a few in a couple of this summers events have cast rather a shadow over this concept and while certainly such a forum is not the place to debate the issue we all need to be aware this is very much under the microscope.

I have tried to give some insight into it all. I can honestly say each year gets harder and this has been by far the most time consuming. It is likely a different method may be used in future – one possibility is a strict rotation system – but while most accept this idea, all hell sometimes breaks loose when they have to drop out

We have been made aware of the clash with Youth Abergavenny Youth A & B and YMSA – and while we are finding it difficult enough to avoid clashes with ACU events it is even more difficult to avoid other organisations – especially if we do not know the dates. However we certainly have no desire to prevent youngsters enjoying what I am led to believe is a super event, and I know the organisers will also be working their balls off to provide it – so yes certainly we will have to move this A & B.

This is a good example of where I began – just look at the whole calendar – bearing in mind all above – and accepting it needs to be run before Nov – see if you can find a date?

June 23/24th looks a possibility – and if in Wales should not affect Wainwright as some Northern clubs could – so this looks a distinct possibility which will be confirmed within a few days at the latest.

As I stated at outset this will probably be all from me on the 2007 calendar – I will not be justifying it or spending time further analysis – except for the Abergavenny date above – and any other last minute hitches , that is the 07 done and dusted.

Debate on principle and philosophy and method of selection and dates – no problem – but this will be for 2008

[Telecat]

I don't know! Do a Few nights at work where the Firewalls playing up again and I came back wondering where my post had got to. Still some interesting points and a bit of "horse trading" going on.