17 replies to this topic

[pitley]

Having just seen the final rounds results, is now the time to question the class structure?
Those of you who know the riders in both the unit class and the brit special/twinshock class will have noted that all the specials riders are now riding in the unit class because they feel they are not competitive against the twinshocks, hence the guys in the unit class on standard bikes have no chance against the specials so they dont bother entering.
IMHO i think these classes need tiying up, so folk know who and what they are competeing against.
Splitting these classes into 3 should?? sort the immediate problem.
UNIT= standard frames, cub, c15,B40, Crusader, etc
BRIT SPECIAL= any after market frame, otter, mc d, etc etc
TWINSHOCK= Twinshock
Keep them all seperate is the only way forward, most people know what a mess the whole Brit bike sceene is in because of so called trick bikes, so these classes may help a bit to stop the standard bikes going elsewhere.

We wouldnt want this series to dwindle away now would we?

Edited by pitley, 20 November 2006 - 09:00 PM.

[scorpa3]

How many classes would that make it overall?

[malcra]

agreed with the points about getting all the competetive riders to compete in the right classes, but a couple of points about the Sammy Miller series:

+ it gives the not-so-good riders (like myself, see yesterdays results) the chance to compete in traditional road-based trials. I do drop lots of marks but I really enjoy this sort of trial rather than 4 laps of a field. I can't work out where all the other twinshock riders are ?
+ that havin a seperate twinshock and British specials class makes sense; the Twinshocks, from Honda TL125's to Fantic 300 Pro's all seem pretty original

I've done 3 Sammy Miller trials this year, in my second full year of riding trials, and have enjoyed every one. To me they represent 'proper trials' and we should encourage clubs to run them by having decent entries. I am already looking to rustle up more twinshock riders for next year from Hereford/South Wales area.

[Woody]

Agree totally that this series needs rescuing before it dies off through lack of support but must admit I don't much understand Brit bike classes. With my limited knowledge of the structure, what you're proposing is to just change the Specials and twinshock class and to split them into their own classes, which seems plausible enough. I think the twinshocks were in their own class a couple of years ago.

At least this way riders in each class are competing against bikes of a similar standard of modification, or not as the case may be, which should encourage riders of standard unit bikes to come back into the series, knowing they haven't got to compete against a special in the same class.

What about the 2-stokes though. Should the replica James etc. go into the specials too, as riders on original spec Greeves, Sprite, Cotton etc aren't really a match for the lightweight replica specials. Any replica or special, regardless of stroke or unit/pre-unit or capacity to go into specials class? I'd say yes as the series really originated for riders of pretty much standard bikes, so they shouldn't have to compete directly against lightweight specials.

The problem of course is enforcing it and assuming that the riders are going to enter the correct class. The specials class is already there of course but no-one seems to enter it. Riders know whether they own a special or not but I can see problems with bikes which have just very light changes and which class they should be in. They aren't a special but they aren't original spec either....

That aside though, as you're never going to please everyone, perhaps for next season, the class rules need re-emphasising on the regs, entry forms, at sign-on at the events and in the Championship regs on the ACU website - similar to what is being done in the Classic series for the no-stop rule. Then everyone is in no doubt as to which class they should be entering

[totalshell]

i think you guys need to get down to a pre 65 trial, if you had a pound for every standard bike i dont think you'd have enough for an ice cream.
The root causes of falling entries are harder sections and the time, effort and cost of keeping even a standard bike 'alive' never mind competetive.
the number of riders leaving though old age etc. is no where near been matched by the number of younger riders, and who can blame them when for less start up money ( what do you get for 1500 quid a 3year old Beta that will run and ride all day or a cub that you will have to spend another grand on to get it half way there) and with hours /days / weeks less time in the garage/ shed you can have an instantly competeive bike just like everybody elses
should it need repairs evrythings available next day from Lampkins try doing that for even a cub never mind anything something exotic like a velocette or Matchless

Edited by totalshell, 21 November 2006 - 05:39 AM.

[Woody]

I understand what you mean about the 'standard' bike situation and retiring riders but this shouldn't affect the number of entries at the Miller rounds. There is a class for specials and standard bikes but both are poorly supported at the moment. However, the recent Classic Experts had 87 entries, majority pre65 of one sort or another. So the riders are out there, the Miller rounds aren't as hard as the Experts, so why is it poorly supported - by both twinshocks and Brits?

Possibly because riders who used to support it think it has now been invaded by specials and twinshocks and the sections are set to suit those bikes. Not the case though, there are still 2 routes and even the hard route sections are still quite 'gentle'. Emphasising that specials must ride in the specials class may help convince riders to give it another try.

Edited by Woody, 21 November 2006 - 09:16 AM.

[Paioli]

why not move the pre unit class to run the same route as the rigid class and try to encourage some of
these big heavy bikes back by giving them a easier days sport then the modified lightweight (specials)
can ride the special class on the harder more suited to to that bike/rider route,and move the twinshocks
to a class of there own then only one extra class needed.
having rode the sammys for the last 8/9 years i have noticed that the sections have slowly become harder
for the riders on the more oridiginal pre unit bikes, rider getting older, bike getting made newer, sections
getting harder, series drifting away from traditional pre 65 motorcycle, another series left unchecked
and in need of a sort out ,the time has now come for some gentle class and rule changes before the new
season starts !

[pitley]

Scorpa3. Sorry for my vauge explaination
Splitting the Twinshocks and Brit Specials is what i meant so adding one more class to the series

Total shell
I attend most pre65/ trials local, so i know the standard of bikes around(not many standard)
I rode in the Inter Centre Pre70 Trial a few weeks ago on a bog standard Cub, and i struggled Big Time,but i thouroughly enjoyed the trial.
Again 95% of the bikes were tricked peices of kit with non standard frames.

Woody
Answer to the replica frame problem, is any one who choses to use a replica lightweight frame goes in the specials class.
Who polices this? THe riders police it not the clubs.
If there is a guy in your class with a tricked up frame, the riders in said class get together and put up £50 and put in a protest to the CoC. This may help the problem.

And before any one says it, i will. That will be the specials class full then!!

Malc
We all know this is a cracking series and long may it run
Now get out there and go find some more Twinshock riders for next year:-)

Edited by pitley, 21 November 2006 - 09:56 AM.

[whatgearyouusing]

I was thinking of doing this series next year and its a bit disappointing to hear the negative comments.From what I'd heard they are cracking trials.Im hoping to compete on a twinshock - I take it that its the classes/bikes that are causing discontent rather than the quality of the trials?

[John Collins]

Have to tell you guys that while the suggestions and ideas you are posting are all worthy of discussion I am afraid we at the T & E do not have the luxury in late November of being to anything about it know

The rules for 2007 are now finalised - so anything you suggest will I am afraid be for 2008. Same goes for all other Championships with the exception of the British Solo Championshiop where we meet with the Organisers in about Jan - then finalise series ( consequently you will find the Championship rules/regs for this do not get put into handbook)

The whole Pre-65 date is one that depends very much on your own personal opinion and I believe on your own riding requirements at the present time.

I know quite a few guy's who are in more advancing years - and frankly their riding ability is now declining at a rate of knots. I find myself that this is a bit of a vicious circle if you do not manage to get out and ride quite often - when you do - you are that rusty you cannot even ride to the ability ( however low) you used to have. When younger - you seemed to be able to get away with it -but now it just seems to make everything much harder.

Many of the guys I know get their enjoyment from building and fettling their machines - which often includes trawling he autojumbles for those rare parts etc. This is where they get their pleasure - and will enjoy bringing the gleaming machines out for a ride around many a Sunday when thankfully they volunteer to observe. I find many of these friends of mine can be put into the " purist" mode when it comes to Pre65 eligibility- and certainly wish to keep everything genuine - as of course it should be.
However as they are rarely riding the machines - certainly not in competition - this is all fine and dandy - and while they often be-moan sections as being too hard etc - on the known occaions when there are good rideable sections available - and often an easy route - they still do not appear.

There was some debate on this in my own club - when I was rather critical of some fellow members recently ( I just seem to create controversy ) The Frank Jones - Sammy Miller round is a super event, and offers an easy route for the genuine larger bikes - of which there are several in our Club. The event is just over an hopur from us. Still none of them went - only a few of us on Twinshocks and Pre 65 " Specials". My conclusion is therefore that the riding is becoming secondary to the bike building - and this is OK - but I just wish they would accept it. When we have put on super easy Novice /Pre 65 events at our Centtrev - thet rarely appear.

While we have certainly tried to keep the rules in accordance with what we thought they should be - for some reasons which escape me - many were reluctant to enter the " Specials" class - although this is clearly what they were - and continued to enter as Pre 65 - which in turn annoyed those who were making the effort to keep within rules.

I know many of you will say that the rules should be strictly enforced - and of course you are correct - but try telling that to the organiser who has worked hard to put on the event when he sees a dwindling entry - or even worse see's those who have entered put their bikes back in the van - when infornmed they are in the wrong class by amachine examiner - who is only trying to do the job correctly.

Of course it is chicken and egg - and if at the start of the year the rules were applied forcibly and correctly the chances are that it would stick . Who is going to travel around and do this then ? Certainly not me - the few Sundays I have free in 07 will be spent on the bike.


At the end of it all - we have to now support those who are supporting the series. We owe this to the Organisers. The easy route - which has been spot on in many events - has certainly not been supported as it should have been - end of story. It is pointless those who should have been riding on it spending their time telling everyone how this or that should have been on the other route - if they are not riding themselves.

Someone has mentioned that if we had a £1 for every genuine machine we would struggle to buy an ice cream - and this I am afraid is spot on. Riders have always modifyed their machines - they always will.
I had hoped that a simpe (A) Non - Modified - Standard and ( Modified/Specials was the way to go. I was wrong - riders did not acept this concept.

For 2007 our aim is simple. Get the Organisers to put on good enjoyable events - two routes so that people can take the easier option as now. Enjoy these events while we still can - as I honestly believe our days of being able to do so are comming to an end . I offer no better examples than the recent Classic Experts and the Sammy Miller Downland. I had two thoroughly enjoyable days - rode badly but only had myself to blame - and thought to myself - stuff the ACU, stuff the arguments about rules, stuff work and shopping on a Sunday - this is what I came into it to do - and this is more of what I am going to do.

[scorpa3]

John Collins, on Nov 21 2006, 10:40 AM, said:

I offer no better examples than the recent Classic Experts and the Sammy Miller Downland. I had two thoroughly enjoyable days - rode badly but only had myself to blame - and thought to myself - stuff the ACU, stuff the arguments about rules, stuff work and shopping on a Sunday - this is what I came into it to do - and this is more of what I am going to do.

Well said John.

[Woody]

Yes, can't disagree with anything you've said there.

I'm just confused as to why the events aren't better supported when the riders are out there. Hopefully there will be a influx of new twinshock riders next year judging by feedback on this and other threads but what is wrong in the pre65 classes?

The very few events I've ridden are of a gentle nature in the main - one or two sections on the hard route at the Greensmith were maybe a tad ambitious for some bike/rider combinations - but generally the severity seems to me to be of the right standard. Surely if you can get one of those monstrous pre65 outfits round the easy route then it is going to be ok for a solo rider of limited ability no matter what the machine. Or is it that some riders just refuse to ride an 'easy' route - maybe?

I still can't help thinking it is because they see the specials in the pre65 class and won't ride it because the sections are put on for them. Wrong, they're not, they are rideable on a standard bike, the bigger the bike, just go onto the easier route. Or is it because they think if the riders on the specials were on standard bikes it would level the playing field and they may have a chance of winning the class in the odd event as the others no longer enjoy a bike advantage. Wrong again, the better riders are the ones who have the specials generally, so they will still win on a standard bike.

If any of you are reading this thread and are thinking that you can't compete on a standard(ish) bike then think again, you can, just pick the correct route for you, go out and enjoy a good old-fashioned road based trial. As John says, they are not going to be around for ever and you'll miss out when they're gone.

And take some mates with you as well - you must have some who have old bikes lying in the shed just screaming to be thrown up the sections again.

[Woody]

whatgearyouusing, on Nov 21 2006, 10:09 AM, said:

I was thinking of doing this series next year and its a bit disappointing to hear the negative comments.From what I'd heard they are cracking trials.Im hoping to compete on a twinshock - I take it that its the classes/bikes that are causing discontent rather than the quality of the trials?

Don't be put off by the comments. They're not intended as negative about the events themselves, they are good. It all depends on your own perspective of course of what you look for in an event, but this series allows you to enjoy a good ride around for a few hours taking in some wonderful scenery and using sections that won't damage you are the bike, instead of 4 laps of 10 in a field and home for lunch.

If you're on a twinshock you should be in the same class as British specials, which is essentially all the modified bikes using modern parts. If it is results you're bothered about a twinshock is able to compete with these bikes, it's just down to who's riding them. If you're not bothered about results then it doesn't matter what you're competing against, you just go out and enjoy yourself. Personally, I think more people are bothered about results than let on, which is where the gripes of 'how can I win against that - it's in the wrong class' come into play. If everyone wasn't bothered and were just 'out to enjoy the ride rround, the result doesn't matter', there would be no complaints.....

Just enter the first one next year, coax and cajole some mates into doing it with you and make your own decision on the event based on your experience. It's the only way really but I can't see you won't enjoy it - unless you're looking for hard sections, then you need the ACU Classic.

Edited by Woody, 21 November 2006 - 02:01 PM.

[Woody]

John Collins, on Nov 21 2006, 10:40 AM, said:

Have to tell you guys that while the suggestions and ideas you are posting are all worthy of discussion I am afraid we at the T & E do not have the luxury in late November of being to anything about it know

The rules for 2007 are now finalised - so anything you suggest will I am afraid be for 2008. Same goes for all other Championships with the exception of the British Solo Championshiop where we meet with the Organisers in about Jan - then finalise series ( consequently you will find the Championship rules/regs for this do not get put into handbook)

John, what about doing what you're doing in the ACU Classic to reiterate the no-stop rule. Just re-emphasise on entry forms, regs, ACU web page etc. that non-standard Brit bikes must enter the specials/twinshock class, if they don't the organisers have the right to switch them to that class when compiling the results. It's up to the riders to then enter the correct class at the outset.

It's not really an issue for me as I only ride the odd one or two and I'm not interested in the championship but it would be a shame to see the series suffering from poor entries next year, if this is the issue. A bit of publicity on the website or in TMX to remind people what the series is about may encourage riders back into it. The specials have the ACU Classic when all is said and done.

Right, that's my lunchtime just about used up......

[whatgearyouusing]

Thanks for the info Woody.Ive got a 83 SWM Im hoping to ride .What class should I enter then?If there's two routes I'd be up for doing the harder route.Must confess to not knowing too much about mods/mechanics etc but Im hoping to keep my bike as original as possible i.e. no disc brakes etc.Thanks.