49 replies to this topic

[Adsy]

I have heard a rumour that the Observing rules for the 2007 British Trials Championship are going to
revert back to the old FIM rules, i.e. stop for a 1 etc.

Is this true?

If so, I personally think that this would be a backward step for the Championship. This was the only opportunity for our top Adults and rising youth stars to hone there skills before venturing into Europe and beyond.

Can anyone shed any light on this? John ??

[YSB]

Hi i heard that as well, but there is a meeting at rugby early Feb regarding the Adult Brit/Champ and would think it will be sorted out then ? i also think this would be a backward step, i also think the youth Brit/Champ
should be run under FIM Rules, :agree:

[scorpa3]

YSB, on Jan 5 2007, 11:26 AM, said:

Hi i heard that as well, but there is a meeting at rugby early Feb regarding the Adult Brit/Champ and would think it will be sorted out then ? i also think this would be a backward step, i also think the youth Brit/Champ
should be run under FIM Rules, :agree:

I think ALL trials should be run under FIM rules....... and the FIM should go FULL NON STOP! That would stop the argument.

[YSB]

Agree dont think it matters what rules are used but everyone must use the same , ?

[scorpa3]

YSB, on Jan 5 2007, 12:28 PM, said:

Agree dont think it matters what rules are used but everyone must use the same , ?

Exactly. What a pathetic situation we find ourselves in.... three different sets of rules.

[PHB]

according to bradford club website there is a strong possibilty that we are going back to the non-stop rules

but as normal the ACU always like to do there own thing why do we have to be different than the rest of europe lets all have the same rules and give our riders a better chance in the european championships.

i know from observing at hawkstone and british championship's which are much easier to observer and there is less arguing with the stop rule of no points but still would like to see non-stop rules back as i think it is much more skillfull

[SDC]

PHB is quite right full non-stop is far more skilful, that’s why the riders don’t want it – especially the young riders.
But the problem is that non-stop is far less spectacular and the people that are putting money into the sport are trying to sell to a mainly uninitiated television audience that want all the spectacular action. You would think the indoor trials circus would suffice.
I would love to go back to non-stop but feel TSR22a (penalised stop) is an ideal compromise and that the FIM ought to return to those rules. I also agree that there should only be one set of rules throughout and if most people feel this way then they should lobby the ACU via their local Club/ACU Centre structure – but don’t hold your breath, it wont happen overnight if it happens ay all!

[John Collins]

Always a few controversy’s on this topic. - and whilst everyone seems to nod their head and declare how wonderful it would be to have one set of rules - almost always they then revert to their own favourite - which often is totally different to the other posts. When I see a good debate on this topic with lots of posts and a clear cut opinion I will be more impressed.

I have covered all this before - and while I think it could be a good topic for debate under ACU discussion I will limit myself top just a few points - especially as someone quite rightly asked me what the score was rather than just rumour.

Any Web site, paper, guru or pundit who is expressing the view that this or that is going to happen for 2007 BC is I am afraid miss-informed. I will try to give some facts.

Firstly though -

(a) Lets get the FIM to change to total Non Stop and that will solve all the problems - possibly it might - but dream on it ain't going to happen for 2007 - if ever - so end of that story. Also if anyone believes that the FIM are going to change their views just because of the UK they are wrong - if it does ever go back to Non -Stop it will be by a concerted effort from lots of other countries as well - and at present I do not see them with much inclination to do so.

Because many people believe that total Non-Stop is best - and you only have to read these posts to get some confirmation of that - if you take it as read that FIM will remain same - certainly for 2007 - the only way you could possibly have one set of rules for 2007 is to remove the total No-Stop option. ? Surely my logic cannot be wrong here?

So those who use it in some Centres, plus all the Classic and Sammy Miller rounds would have to abandon it and run under TSR 22 or FIM.

Not only is that a crazy and ridiculous idea - but it is too daft to waste any more time on.

Logically then you are going at least two sets of rules for 2007 - and in my opinion longer than that.


Now let us return to some hard facts not fiction in relation to 2007 British Solo Championship which is the actual case in point.

All documented before - but to re -cap.

For the 2006 Champ there was a request that Brit Champ to run under FIM rules - the main thought being to help our riders who compete at World and UEM level.

A meeting was held at start of 2006 by T & E as normal with Brit Champ Organisers, BC riders invited, Importers, plus press etc.

After a lengthy debate it was decided to try the FIM system for 2006 as an experimental year.

There were various views for and against - and of course requests to go back to total Non-Stop.

I think it would be fair to say that here was a fair airing of views - with probably the majority although not 100% sure feeling it should at least be tried. It was important to emphasise that it would be an experimental year - and also we did not really know quite a few things such as how we would supply suitable timing devices and so on.

Obviously - not everyone agreed with this decision - but I think all agreed it would be a years trial.

This is why it is totally wrong in my opinion that people should be making statements at end of 2006 that we would continue with FIM rules for 2007 and should look at changing others- especially youth to fall into line.

This I think would be a kick in the teeth for those - who were not for FIM but accepted it should be tried - why an earth should a decision now be taken by the T & E Committee without at least having the decency to offer those who had the anti FIM rules view a chance to look at it again and perhaps point out its deficiencies.
Equally the Organisers - who worked hard to put he event on needed to be consulted - how did their Observers feel? Did it make a big difference to marking out sections etc. Equally those who thought it had been a success should be able to say so. Others (and I include myself) am still not 100% sure and have some queries.

Additionally how did the riders ( many of whom only rode this system in the Brit Champ) feel - after all it is them that are riding the bikes.

So anyone who has " pre-guessed " the outcome is certainly only guessing.

That does give a problem further down the line of course - not really feasable to debate if other Championships such as Youth should run under same system when you do not know what that system will be - and of course rounds need to be allocated and Champ conditions accepted .

Equally - it would be ridiculous at this stage to tell all Trials riders and Organisers - the vast majority of whom choose to run under TSR 22 - by the way - if in Feb we decide Brit Champ remains on FIM rules you must all abandon your plans and run under it too?

So - Fact: With the possible exception of the British Solo Trials Championship - all other Championships will run under the same marking system as 2006.


Fact: All Championship Class riders have been written two and asked for their view

BC Expert riders ( top 15 I think) have also been written to and asked their view.

All Brit Championship Organisers have been written to and obviously asked to come to meeting with opinion of their Club of how it went in 06 - and this of course will include what their Observers tell them - my own club who run a round will be debating this over next few meetings.

The Brit Champ Organisers meeting is on Feb 3rd. Champ riders and Experts ( top 15 I think) will be invited as will the others who are normally invited.

At the end of this meeting - after listening to what everyone says - the T & E will sit down and quickly make a decision on the rules for 2007. Obviously not everyone in the room will agree - and that is why we as a Committee make the final decision and always will.

Finally - the reason it is done this way is that there have been times when people have had a lot to say about BC - without actually being riders or Organisers or in any way involved.

I actually had a chap bend my ear last year about how difficult it was for Observers with 3 sets of rules - fair point - but then he added that he had never actually observed anyway.

Personally I observed myself under all 3 methods last year - and had no real problems with either.

I have a few friends who had discussed at length with me observing rules - and we actually came to the conclusion that as the only method they had actually observed over the last few years was TSR22 - it actually made no difference to them if there were 27 options - our Centre runs under TSR 22 and that’s an end to it as far as they were concerned. It does often seem to me that some people are objecting to the principle rather than the practice of actually observing? - If you do not actually observe under FIM rules it is quite hard to be for or against it on the observing viewpoint?

Now - We will have the views of those who ride in it, those who organise it ( and hence Observe it) - I think this is a fair representation.

So there is the position - as I write this - I do not have a clue what rules the BC will run under in 2007 - and I confidently predict neither does anyone else.

[scorpa3]

John, Thank you once again for such a comprehensive and honest reply to what is obviously a difficult subject.
Now we have the facts... as they stand.

[bigwig]

I feel so strongly about this topic that i've pinched my Dads pseudonym... haha.
I think that this decicion could possibly effect the futures of the up and coming riders. I personally feel that it would be ridiculous to change the rules for the British Championship back to the TSR22A as it would benefit the riders in no way. I can't see that there was a problem last year with the curent FIM rulings when used in the BTC. If anything, it has benefitted, both the riders and observers. A lot of confusion and disagreements have disappeared. No more argueing whether the rider stopped forward motion or not. I have ridden in trials where the rulings used to vary from section to section. One section would be no problem with having to ride on the move... the next section could be impossible to ride without stopping! If the ACU really want the next generation to hold its own on the world stage then surely they need to do everything that they can to help. This means keeping the British Championship rules in line with the FIM world championship and the rest of the world! Tell me another country that has the confusion we do?

Yours in Sport,

Alexz

[bdmc]

Yes it was on the Bradford website regarding 'reverting back to TSR22a' rules for the 2007 BC. There were concerns from some of the riders who rode our Boxing Day event that this was to be.

I asked the question 'was it true' and also stated that if any one who rode the 2006 series and did not want to change back, to put there concerns in writting to the ACU and Clubs.

AS John as stated the rules will be duscussed sometime in February with the event organisers, importers and riders. I hope that those who want either a 'change' or 'stay as we' and cannot attend the meeting will have sent thier thoughts to the Trials committee.

Question to 'Scorpa3, PHB, SDC and YSB' Did you ride any of the the Colin Appleyard BC series in 2006? Did you actually observe a round? and did your club put on a round? If so what was your personal thoughts, not here say?

[scorpa3]

bdmc, on Jan 5 2007, 04:39 PM, said:

Question to 'Scorpa3, PHB, SDC and YSB' Did you ride any of the the Colin Appleyard BC series in 2006? Did you actually observe a round? and did your club put on a round? If so what was your personal thoughts, not here say?

In answer to those questions, no, no and no.
However, my comment is directed at the ridiculous situation we find ourselves in by having three sets of rules all in operation at the same time.
If you read my post, I certainly haven't critisised any of the three diferent rules, they all DO have their own merits.

I personaly feel that full Non stop is the solution, but of-course many/most people would disagree.
As John states in his excellent reply, the ACU will be consulting all those concerned and will make a decision on the BC in due course. For the time being the ACU can't do fairer than that.

Question answered.

[Nigel Dabster]

scorpa3, on Jan 5 2007, 04:56 PM, said:

bdmc, on Jan 5 2007, 04:39 PM, said:

Question to 'Scorpa3, PHB, SDC and YSB' Did you ride any of the the Colin Appleyard BC series in 2006? Did you actually observe a round? and did your club put on a round? If so what was your personal thoughts, not here say?

In answer to those questions, no, no and no.
However, my comment is directed at the ridiculous situation we find ourselves in by having three sets of rules all in operation at the same time.
If you read my post, I certainly haven't critisised any of the three diferent rules, they all DO have their own merits.

I personaly feel that full Non stop is the solution, but of-course many/most people would disagree.
As John states in his excellent reply, the ACU will be consulting all those concerned and will make a decision on the BC in due course. For the time being the ACU can't do fairer than that.

Question answered.

I think that as a fair debate it would be sad if the observers and organisers, even Bdmcc's voice carried as much weight as the riders.
It is their championship and if if its just for the top fifteen then as we have differing rules lets have the rules which benefit the riders views, a bit like positve discrimination.

I did not observe or (obviously) take part, and my club would love to put on a round but a flat field with 8 sections doesn't test me let alone experts.
However I did see a couple of rounds and Know one thing for sure that Grimbo would have won regardless of the rules, and doubt that the top 3 would be much different.
So who are the FIM rules for? Well the only logical reason for changing back to no stop would be to try and exclude our upcoming riders from competing in the BTC. Dabill and wigg and haslam if they are he ones we need in the BTC and are our best next generation surely the flagship championship should be FIM rules?
How much help has it been for Jack Challoner when he got his Youth championship that he had a BTC with fim rules aswell?
Was it a big help to wiggy to get his World and European titles?
You bet.

Would we want to force these riders out of the BTC?

Hypothetically look at a calender a clash, BTC and a good euro event, how would the organisers feel if wigg dibs and others did that in preference because the rules had gone backwards.

Last years youth A and B was marked as near to FIM as it could be so its there already.

[scorpa3]

[/quote]

Was it a big help to wiggy to get his World and European titles?
You bet.

Would we want to force these riders out of the BTC?

Hypothetically look at a calender a clash, BTC and a good euro event, how would the organisers feel if wigg dibs and others did that in preference because the rules had gone backwards.

Last years youth A and B was marked as near to FIM as it could be so its there already.
[/quote]

Nigel, I can't disagree with you on this, so following this line of thought; all modern trials should follow FIM rules.

[agiow]

This is just an observation by an interested party, does football or rugby have different rules in Europe , I don’t think so, whether it’s the premiership of Seria “A” the rules are the same, would it not be sensible for the top flight Championship’s ie “The British Trials Championship & The British Experts Championship to be run on the same rules as are European counterparts, at least then when our riders go to Europe or ride a world or European round held in this country without having to think about trying to ride to a different set of rule’s.
I personally would like to see the fim rules extended to encompass the British Ladies Championship and the British Youth A & B Championship, there’s some very good youth riders out there that will probably be going aboard this year and apart from not being able to speak the local “lingo” they have to ride to a different set of rules, by the way does anyone know the French for “B******’S I didn’t touch the flag”
This must be the way forward to give our rider’s the best chance on the European and World stage.