charlie prescott Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 Hi Guy's. A "Otter" Frame with a oil tank fitted, could be OK, for the Scottish? so Ia'm told, along with frame rails underneath the engine. We Will See. In the new year. Four stud forks? Naa. don't thinks so. Have you seen all the bikes from the EU. Nice engineering though. was looking at a few at the "Manx Classic". Regards Charlie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted September 19, 2007 Report Share Posted September 19, 2007 Just had another thought about a replacement frame for the B40. Cheney list a new frame kit for the BSA unit single for scrambles. They also say they will custom make a frame to requirements. Maybe they can use the scrambles frame as a starting point and tailor it to suit for trials by altering the steering and wheelbase. Wouldn't be too difficult I'd have thought. They've made trials frames in the past so must have the right knowledge for steering and other dimensions. Their scrambles frame has the duplex frame cradle under the engine too, so it looks like the original in that respect. Maybe worth contacting them for their opnion Cheney Racing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big john Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 (edited) To my knowledge "Otter" style frames on BSA's are not acceptable/eligible in the Pre65 Scottish Two day. Also BSA "Four-Stud" type front forks are a definate no-no as they came out into series production in 1969! Big John Edited September 21, 2007 by Big John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02-apr Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 To my knowledge "Otter" style frames on BSA's are not acceptable/eligible in the Pre65 Scottish Two day. Also BSA "Four-Stud" type front forks are a definate no-no as they came out into series production in 1969! Big John This thread has set my brain going and brought back memories of a C15 (highly altered) that was run by a chap named Jackson, whose first name I can't recall, in Yorkshire. Long after the Spanish two strokes came in he was still using it in the Scottish running two back sprockets, and altering the chain length, to get the speed on the road. This eventually became very long travel at the back if my memory is right but I have not seen or heard of it for years. Does anyone have any info or photos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 To my knowledge "Otter" style frames on BSA's are not acceptable/eligible in the Pre65 Scottish Two day. Also BSA "Four-Stud" type front forks are a definate no-no as they came out into series production in 1969! Big John They aren't supposed to be no, but depends who you are I guess as there were some competing this year. As far as I know Scott Ellis created his own oil in frame C15 when riding for BSA before 1965, but as it wasn't a production model BSA stopped him using it as he had to be seen riding what the customer could buy. So although an oil in frame BSA existed before 1965 it wasn't a production model, hence the problem with them in the Pre65. This may or may not be true but it is what I have read or been told over the years - with a few variations of course but that is the essence of it. The original Otter frame is supposed to be a copy of Scott's bike, and the Miller / Faber frames have evolved from that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie prescott Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 Hi Guys. Thank's Woody. This is what I have been saying for years, and I can remember a Guy with a large section spine type frame for a C15 long before 1965. I am still on with The Scott Ellis replica, as well as several other bikes. The frame as been compleated for some time, along with most of the other bits ,like hubs forks etc, but am still missing a few correct engine gear box bits for the "f" type engine. Will try to get a picture of the frame on to the site , if I can, Then you will see the difference with this frame and the Faber type. Is a Faber frame with a Cub engine OK for the Scottish Big"J"? Regards Charlie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big john Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 The Otter was basically similar in idea to Miller's "Hi-Boy" frame. Take a standard Bultaco or Bessa frame if you like, a large hacksaw, half an hour of your time (if you can handle a hacksaw) and hey presto a "Hi-Boy" is born. OK you still have to plate it up and get a stout bashplate knocked up, but that in theory is that. The overbearing rule is that if your frame is devoid of frame rails under the motor (unless it's an HT5 Ariel) then it probably isn't OK for the Pre65 Scottish. I know that some four stud forks have ridden the Scottish 2 Day, but their rider hasn't always appeared in the programme the following year! Reason, quite simple, notes are taken and decisions made, I'll leave the rest up to your imagination. The Pre65 Scottish doesn't need: Bikes with parts that are not acceptable Bultacos Montesas Ossas Case rested m'laud! Big John (please note my standard legal disclaimer: Big John is not acting as a spokesman for the organisers of the Pre65 Scottish Trial and his thought are not necessarily those of the organisers. Big John also usually rides a very heavy 350 Matchless which under scruitiny bears a striking resemblance to being a fairly standard devoid of vast modifications from standard bike which carries a set of forks devoid of any foreign matter whatsoever ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie prescott Posted September 23, 2007 Report Share Posted September 23, 2007 Hi Guys, Hi Big "j". I agree with what you say mate, but feel it rather unfair on the "Otter" type frames for the Bsa C and B type enginend bikes when there are New frames that look a bit like a C15 t frame that are given a ride most years. And I don't want to get started on the Triumph "Cub" or Ariel HT5 frames that I see compeat every year. Hope your forks have not got PJ1 oil in them then. Regards Charlie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big john Posted September 23, 2007 Report Share Posted September 23, 2007 (edited) Hi Guys,Hi Big "j". I agree with what you say mate, but feel it rather unfair on the "Otter" type frames for the Bsa C and B type enginend bikes when there are New frames that look a bit like a C15 t frame that are given a ride most years. And I don't want to get started on the Triumph "Cub" or Ariel HT5 frames that I see compeat every year. Hope your forks have not got PJ1 oil in them then. Regards Charlie. Hi Charlie, To be honest my old pal "Tweedside Tuner" Mel Hume changed the oil in the forks recently as a favour (I have been busy recently) and I'm not that sure what is in it, knowing him it's probably Silkolene fork oil 10W, but I can let you into a wee secret here, the engine and gearbox of my Matchless is lubed by Castrol Classic GP50!!! Back to the subject in hand, fairness has nothing to do with it. What did the regular trials rider ride before 31st December 1964? (when I was 7 years old) Certainly not Otters except for Scott boy who was a factory man after all! For sure there have always been "specials" and "Bitsas", Pre-1965 and sure enough a number of British Bike trials have a specials class, but at Kinlochleven it is just not possible to have this, it simply flies in the face of the whole concept of riding "Scotland". The Pre65 has for many years been massively oversubscribed and I have heard almost every conceivable suggestion as to how to accommodate 360 riders up there (the maximum is 180 because of the RAC permissions for road trial legislation by the way). What IMHO the organisers have tried to do is recreate a old "mini SSDT" as it was in the days before Sammy brought out his version of the Sherpa. The organisers have a tough job on their hands and always have had with machine eligibility, that problem will never go away. It would be best for all having original type bikes up there instead of the multitude of specials and so on. After all, the Inverness club can easily cater for that side of Pre65 trialling! Not an easy subject, there are many twists and turns, but for sure the organisers are unmoved by the appeals for legalisation of the Otter type of machine. Oh and in case I do get a wee hurl next season at Kinlochleven, I may be BSA mounted (B40, maybe just for a change) but even that has proper BSA forks, frame and nothing fancy. I had considered spending some dosh on getting it tricked up like Eric Boocock's BSA, but in the end I settled for fairly standard. My advice (for what it is worth) to all concerned for riding up north in 2008 and beyond is this: Enter on as big a bike as you dare ride. Enter on as original a bike as you can get your hands on. Don't switch bikes just before the start i.e enter on an AJS and turn up with a fancy Cub! (You can bet your bottom dollar if you do, that will be noted!!!) Don't even think about riding a Sherpa no matter how old you think it is, that goes for Montesa and Ossa derivatives as well. Take a note out of Clive Dobson's book (Norton 500T rider of note whose bike isn't full of Lotus parts or anything remotely manufactured overseas!) Over to you Clive if you have read this... Most of all, if you do get to ride Scotland, enjoy it , for that my friends is what it is finally all about. Big John (Remember that disclaimer guys!) Edited September 23, 2007 by Big John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie prescott Posted September 23, 2007 Report Share Posted September 23, 2007 Hi Guys, Hi Big"j". I know you'r right on every count, but it just seems a shame that to even consider sending for an entry to the pinicle event for Pre65's you have to have a machine specificly built for just this one event. (Or at least a frame,forks.carb,etc). The manx classic two day has the same problem with entry's but the bike rules are a bit more flexible, but then you have got to take in the price of getting there, with the Cost-a-packet company. Going back to the subject, find out your Offroad Review Number (91) Is the bike on the front cover, ( Ex Brian Hyatt) in your veiw elegible for the Scottish Classic two day trial. If you think it is, I might try for an entry on that. I think an Ariel (MST) is too big for me to pick from the floor nowadays. Hope your Bsa is Ok you must send me the spec. Regards Charlie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinnied Posted September 24, 2007 Report Share Posted September 24, 2007 The Pre65 Scottish doesn't need: Bikes with parts that are not acceptable Bultacos Montesas Ossas 100% Agree John Vinnie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinnied Posted September 24, 2007 Report Share Posted September 24, 2007 The Pre65 Scottish doesn't need: Bikes with parts that are not acceptable Bultacos Montesas Ossas 100% Agree John Vinnie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pocket Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 Hi Beamish, Have you had any luck in finding a frame? Let me know how you have got on. Cheers Steve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 The Pre65 Scottish doesn't need: Bikes with parts that are not acceptable Bultacos Montesas Ossas 100% Agree John Vinnie I respect your opinions guys so why do the organisers allow entries from the Spanish contingent on them then???????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 But nowhere in the regs does it say that the bikes have to be British only - just Pre65. Both Bultaco and Montesa had 175/200 trail bikes which were being adapted and used in trials well before '65, the Sherpa N and the Impala, Ossa may have had something too, not sure. The Bultaco and Montesa entered in Scotland are a Sherpa N and an Impala, never saw the Ossa, therefore they should be eligible according to the regs, so there aren't any rules being broken. Unless.... the Sherpa has a later engine fitted and I think the Mont did too and both probably had other later model parts from trials models fitted, so they're no longer Pre65. But that is no different to the modern Cubs, James, Francis Barnetts, Ariels etc from the British ranks - a lot of which have Spanish and Japanese parts fitted, modern cylinder porting, nikasil/chrome liners, Jap clutches etc. etc. Not saying any of this is right or wrong, just the way it is. If bikes with parts that are not acceptable (definition..??) weren't allowed in the trial, I'd have a rough guess that two thirds of the entry would be ineligble and with it every one of the front running riders wouldn't have a bike to ride. This year I went in the notebook for having (I'd guess) unacceptable forks, yokes and front hub - the rest of the bike is standard C15. The yokes are Montesa 247, basically what Alan Whitton has copied for his billet yokes that all the Cubs, James etc. have fitted. His yokes are ok it seems (cost about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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