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Sherco 320 4t


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#31 malibudon

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 07:54 AM

The bike started really easy all day, never used the hot start. It didn't even want the choke in the morning. They took there biggest problem and made it one of their best features.

Comparing it to my Montesa

Things that I like better;
Power, More torque right off the bottom as you would expect from an extra 70cc's
Starts easy in gear
lighter
Riding position, this surprised me because I have always felt comfortable on the Montesa and not as much on Sherco's.

Things not as good;
Suspension, I love the Montesa suspension especially the rear shock
EFI, there is no substitute for fuel injection. Just get on and go no matter where you are, no worries. I never had an issue with it while I rode it, but the Sherco will cough and stall under extreme conditions as any 4t with a carb will.
It vibrates more and doesn't have the same finished feel while riding as a 4rt.
Some people might like the softer bottom end power of the Montesa & the Montesa also rev's faster.

If this bike had a better shock and fuel injection it might be the perfect bike. As it stands now I really like it and am happy with it :D


I rode sirhc's bike (he's a Sherco/Scorpa dealer, BTW) after Sunday's trial. I had ridden the '05 320 and was not happy at all. It was clearly not ready for prime time. If it had been the first 4T, it would have killed the concept dead. :(

However, on my short ride, I can tell you that the '07 320 is a vastly superior machine. Not only does it kick over more easily, it also fires more readily. That, in and of itself, is a huge improvement. The power delivery still feels lumpy compared to my Cota 4RT, but if you want brute force, the 320 has it. Also, I loved how light it is. The front end is really easy to pick up and move around. :D

The "extreme conditions" that sirhc is referring to when riding the 320 is "riding it like a Cota 4RT". I snuck up to a rock, clutch out, just like I do on my 4RT. Wicked it on, expecting that nice burst. Instead, it died in that 4T-with-carb way, and I was pitched over the bars. :wacko: Uh, yeah. Thanks, here's your bike back. I saw another guy get on the bike, a much better rider than me. He rides a Cota 315R. He had the same experience I did. He gave it gas at a near standstill, and to a standstill it came.

Ultimately, there is no substitute for EFI on a 4T. Sure, you can ride around the problems inherent with a carb, but that's no substitute for doing it right.

#32 atomant

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 09:45 AM

The bike started really easy all day, never used the hot start. It didn't even want the choke in the morning. They took there biggest problem and made it one of their best features.

Comparing it to my Montesa

Things that I like better;
Power, More torque right off the bottom as you would expect from an extra 70cc's
Starts easy in gear
lighter
Riding position, this surprised me because I have always felt comfortable on the Montesa and not as much on Sherco's.

Things not as good;
Suspension, I love the Montesa suspension especially the rear shock
EFI, there is no substitute for fuel injection. Just get on and go no matter where you are, no worries. I never had an issue with it while I rode it, but the Sherco will cough and stall under extreme conditions as any 4t with a carb will.
It vibrates more and doesn't have the same finished feel while riding as a 4rt.
Some people might like the softer bottom end power of the Montesa & the Montesa also rev's faster.

If this bike had a better shock and fuel injection it might be the perfect bike. As it stands now I really like it and am happy with it :D


I rode sirhc's bike (he's a Sherco/Scorpa dealer, BTW) after Sunday's trial. I had ridden the '05 320 and was not happy at all. It was clearly not ready for prime time. If it had been the first 4T, it would have killed the concept dead. :(

However, on my short ride, I can tell you that the '07 320 is a vastly superior machine. Not only does it kick over more easily, it also fires more readily. That, in and of itself, is a huge improvement. The power delivery still feels lumpy compared to my Cota 4RT, but if you want brute force, the 320 has it. Also, I loved how light it is. The front end is really easy to pick up and move around. :D

The "extreme conditions" that sirhc is referring to when riding the 320 is "riding it like a Cota 4RT". I snuck up to a rock, clutch out, just like I do on my 4RT. Wicked it on, expecting that nice burst. Instead, it died in that 4T-with-carb way, and I was pitched over the bars. :wacko: Uh, yeah. Thanks, here's your bike back. I saw another guy get on the bike, a much better rider than me. He rides a Cota 315R. He had the same experience I did. He gave it gas at a near standstill, and to a standstill it came.

Ultimately, there is no substitute for EFI on a 4T. Sure, you can ride around the problems inherent with a carb, but that's no substitute for doing it right.


Strange you should have the exact reverse of the experience I had but hey, thats personal opinions for ya ;)
I have to agree over the EFI. I simply wouldn't touch another 4T unless it had a quality EFI system fitted :D
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#33 sirhc

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 01:44 PM

The "extreme conditions" that sirhc is referring to when riding the 320 is "riding it like a Cota 4RT".


I was just calling you an extreme rider Don :D

I rode the bike all weekend and never once stalled it. I let several other two stroke riders ride it and none stalled it and all came back with a smile on their face. After Don and the other rider made it stall I rode it yesterday morning and purposely gave it full throttle from a slow crawl at idle and of course it stalled. Did the same with my 4rt and of course it didn't. Never had any issue's while I normally rode, but as I, Don & Atom have stated EFI is the way to go.
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#34 woody

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 02:11 PM

EFI is the way to go.



Only if it can be achieved without the ridiculously high tickover speed. May not bother a lot of people but that is the one thing on the 4RT that I didn't like. I run with no tickover 95% of the time on my TYZ (100% on pre65/twinshocks) as when I shut off I want it to shut off and this wasn't possible with the 4RT, only way to crawl was holding it on the clutch/brakes.

Even with EFI a 4RT will still stall if you just happen to catch the wrong combination of gear/revs/tight nadgery part of section - they aren't stall proof. Less prone to cough stalling if the throttle is wicked open from nothing, yes - but how many times do you do that in a section. If you're launching up rock steps from nothing a bike is fired off the clutch anyway, 2 or 4 stroke.

EFI is definitely superior but until they can adapt it 100% for a trials bike I'd prefer a carb.

#35 malibudon

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 04:55 PM

Strange you should have the exact reverse of the experience I had but hey, thats personal opinions for ya :D
I have to agree over the EFI. I simply wouldn't touch another 4T unless it had a quality EFI system fitted :D


I mentioned a lot of things there. Are you saying you had the opposite experience on all of them?

And sometimes it's not simply personal opinion when you're riding two different bikes in two different locales.

#36 malibudon

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 05:01 PM

Only if it can be achieved without the ridiculously high tickover speed. May not bother a lot of people but that is the one thing on the 4RT that I didn't like. I run with no tickover 95% of the time on my TYZ (100% on pre65/twinshocks) as when I shut off I want it to shut off and this wasn't possible with the 4RT, only way to crawl was holding it on the clutch/brakes.

Even with EFI a 4RT will still stall if you just happen to catch the wrong combination of gear/revs/tight nadgery part of section - they aren't stall proof. Less prone to cough stalling if the throttle is wicked open from nothing, yes - but how many times do you do that in a section. If you're launching up rock steps from nothing a bike is fired off the clutch anyway, 2 or 4 stroke.

EFI is definitely superior but until they can adapt it 100% for a trials bike I'd prefer a carb.


Woody, why would you run your TYZ with no tickover? Back in the day, I'd run my Sherpa T without tickover because it would load up at idle. My TYZ would idle all day long and run sharply whenever throttle was applied.

And, yes, the 4RT will stall. I don't know that you'd want to program it to never stall under any conditions. In 60 section rides, I stalled it once, and it was complete rider error. It was early on and I was still riding it like my 315R. I blipped the throttle to go over a rock/root combo. When I shut off to coast over, 2T-style, it stalled. But, it stalled due to lack of fuel and a heavy load. That's always going to happen, unless you think it should run with no throttle in fifth gear from a standstill with the brakes applied.

EFI may never been adapted 100% for a trials bike, but it's a lot closer to 100% than a carb...so EFI it is for me.

#37 ishy

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 07:04 PM

You can cure the flat spot off idle by just tweaking the mixture screw, one of the bikes greatest assets is being able to go up steps and climbs from nothing, in fact I felt more comfortable leaving it a bit late and getting on my line on the 3.2, than I have on any other bike.

I have seen many 4rt riders drop the idle from factory spec, and they stall easier, it also makes them hard to start, if you want somthing to fail, you probably can make it.
You state yourself Don, when you first got your 4rt you had to get used to it, how many hours have you got on a 3.2 ? It takes time and setup for any rider on any bike for it to feel right for that rider.

I think the Mont is a well made reliable bike, and rode one the past two years in the SSDT, all round best bike for the job in my mind, but in the sections I had better results on a sherco 125.
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#38 woody

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 07:43 PM

Run the TYZ with no tickover because I like to ride just on the throttle, no clutch, which is the way I learnt to on Bults, Ossas. Nothing to do with the engine loading up at idle, just riding preference as like I said, if I shut off the throttle I want the bike to respond that way too. With no tickover the TYZ will drop to nothing without stalling without having to dip the clutch - it's for emergencies only. I couldn't ride the 4RT that way due to the high tickover and had to constantly feather the clutch/brakes to go slow which I hate doing unless absolutely necessary. On the Sherco 4T I could ride it the way I like to and didn't need to feather the clutch constantly. I'm pretty sure I could ride that with no tickover too.

Other than the high tickover I can't fault the EFI on the Mont, just that the high tickover was the biggest issue for me.

I didn't mean that the EFI wasn't good enough to stop the bike stalling - any bike will stall under certain conditions, 2 or 4 stroke - nothing to do with EFI or carb

#39 steve fracy

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 12:36 AM

I agree with Ishy's statments totally. I have only had my 3.2 Sherco for a few months now and I am still learning lots about it. I can defenitely say though that it does NOT stall easy, nor does it have a flat spot. As Ishy states, an 1/8th turn can change things dramatically with the fuel screw. Both the carb and EFI do have there own merits. I like the carb better for the reasons that Woody states. I can't stand having the idle so bloody high, and on the clutch constantly. The 3.2 has the torque and power to pull you out of any situation. I rode a Mont a fair bit, but in the end had too many dislikes, and it is heavier and not as much power!! No doubt it is a well built bike and lots of folks like them, good thing there is more than one to choose from!
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#40 malibudon

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 12:52 AM

You can cure the flat spot off idle by just tweaking the mixture screw, one of the bikes greatest assets is being able to go up steps and climbs from nothing, in fact I felt more comfortable leaving it a bit late and getting on my line on the 3.2, than I have on any other bike.

I have seen many 4rt riders drop the idle from factory spec, and they stall easier, it also makes them hard to start, if you want somthing to fail, you probably can make it.
You state yourself Don, when you first got your 4rt you had to get used to it, how many hours have you got on a 3.2 ? It takes time and setup for any rider on any bike for it to feel right for that rider.

I think the Mont is a well made reliable bike, and rode one the past two years in the SSDT, all round best bike for the job in my mind, but in the sections I had better results on a sherco 125.


The '05 Sherco 320 I rode in an event was prepped by Sherco. It was hard to kick and reluctant to start. Sometimes, it was extremely reluctant to start, which wore me out. It had great power...more than I need...but it wasn't as smooth as the 4RT. The '05 4RT was extremely easy to start, but I didn't like the clutch. I stuck with my 315R for a couple more years.

The '07 Sherco 320 I rode was prepped by a dealer. Kicking it was easy. It started right up. Yeah!!! I rode it for just a few minutes after the trial. The one thing that 4Ts have always suffered in comparison to 2Ts is the flame-out when gassing it at low rpm. The 4RT solves that problem. The 320 does not. Again, you can ride around that problem, but I prefer the precision of EFI. I'd like to have a 4RT that weighs what the 320 weighs, but I probably wouldn't trade the reliability. I'd rather ride than wrench, so I'll take the few extra pounds.

I wouldn't make the claim that the 4RT is the best performing trials bike made. It may be for some people, but it's certainly not for others. I find 125 2Ts difficult to ride and have a strong preference for 200s--but that's just me. Had Montesa made a 200cc version of either the 315R or 4RT, I'd have bought one. I did have a 1981 Montesa Cota 200...wait, I still do! :D


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#41 copemech

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 03:18 AM

Different aspects come to mind, but I do think a lot is left up to the rider. Jarvis don't seem to have much problem! Was it Oliveras or Bruand on it in the WTC? The bikes are good runners as compared to the sewing machine, they will chug down low and pull strong!

Take a Honda out in the yard and clikc it up to 4th or 5th gear and try a bit of chugging around, see what happens when the revs get low! What fun!

On the '05 bikes, of which I rode 2, one was sorta crappy running and the other spot on. Both would go ballistic with the wick on! This was before the mod kits even. I attribute this mostly to the Dellorto's as it seems you either get a good one or a bad one. If the Chineese want to copy something, the Dellorto would be the one! For five bucks you could get one! I think Ishy wound up with the good runner!

Although I have not had a run on the '07, I would naturally attribute the reported perkiness to the 28mm PWK. Lots of carb there! A more precise mixer for sure and smooth yet very powerful, same as with it on the 2T! Makes me wonder what a 24 or 26mm PWK would do on the bike? Untill then, even the slow throttle might help, maybe even the "smart' thing to do! After all, the real difference is that you are talking about hopping on an "out of the box" top contender, not a stock Mont which after a few thousand MORE bucks can be made into a PRO bike! But I'll bet you it is not a BOU bike! BTW, the orange paint and stickers are cheap!
Ride it Like it was one of your old Girlfriends, If you still remember how!


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#42 copemech

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 04:15 AM

I wish the Andy would allow me to post the flick of Caby on the 4T as a stickie, it is a 20 meg file! It IS tops! :D

Edited by copemech, 19 September 2007 - 04:15 AM.

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#43 steve fracy

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 04:32 AM

Copey, don't forget the one thing I forgot to mention too, in the differences between the Mont and the Sherco. All the ones I see around my parts have had a couple of the restrictors taken out of the exhaust to try and get them to breath a bit and get some power. Loud to the point of being a tad obnoxious!!!!! Sorry, but for me if I just sit down and check off the pro's and cons of each, out of the box, the Sherco has won. I think the Mont is a good bike for sure, but to me, to pay top dollar and then have to pay another couple of grand to make it an expert bike, not for me anyway.EFI or not, if I have to spend $$$ on big bore kits and exhaust mods etc, what is the point?
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#44 malibudon

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 05:33 AM

Steve, you're absolutely correct. If you need the 320 power and ride expert, then going with the Montesa doesn't make any sense. For me, in the Intermediate class, the Honda 250 motor makes more than enough power everywhere in the powerband, and the 320's power is more liability than benefit.

#45 copemech

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 03:05 AM

As a sidenote on this thread, you know it is reported that the 4T Gasser will have the same F.I. system as the Honda, and 350 or more cc that revs to 12,000 rpm or more!

Should be fun! To WATCH! :D
Ride it Like it was one of your old Girlfriends, If you still remember how!




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