paulthistle Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 JMcK I agree, but I see a more basic problem. The small dealers are competing with the importer for sales. The importers will have to leave the retail sales to the dealers. Establish a genuine price list that is the same to all dealers. Then it would be in their interest to have a strong dealer network. The importer needs to be able to profit from the unit sale and parts sales, not all bike importers are the parts importers for their brand!!??!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil king Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 I may be sticking my finger in the fan so to speak, but I believe the importers should accept the bulk of the responsibility for where trials is today. Trials is such a small community, the importers should have had the insight to band together and develop a proper dealer network years ago, requiring the dealers to stock parts, service bikes, etc, etc. just like the mainstream bike industry did, although obviously on a much smaller scale.By allowing everybody and their brother to have a franchise actually hurt the sport rather than promoting it. Easy to say that now, but what can be done to help steer us in the right direction? Not much, given the current overall condition of the economy here in the US. It's not just bikes either, I drive past a large a Toyota dealership every day going to work and they still have new 2007 cars on the lot. Everybody's hurting. If the importers won't help initially, maybe those of us that have a substantial investment in our businesses need to start our own dealer associations and petition the importers to pull franchises from people that aren't serious about trying to make a living in the industry. If the average trials bike rider would support legitimate dealers and avoid the fly-by-night guys to save a hundred bucks or so that would be a step in the right direction also. That probably won't happen though, everybody tries to save a buck here and there to put food on the table. It's the "Wall Mart" syndrome all over again...we wonder why nobody manufactures anything in the US anymore on our way to Wally World to buy Chinese crap. What if they decide you need a showroom with location limits, and you need to stock 10 bikes, then charge you a franchise fee on gross sales? My point being, that you are wanting to taylor fit the rules to yourself to cut out competition for yourself. If they were to propose limits beyond your means you would be crying foul. I'm not knocking you for being human, but you need to see your argument for what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulthistle Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 What if they decide you need a showroom with location limits, and you need to stock 10 bikes, then charge you a franchise fee on gross sales? My point being, that you are wanting to taylor fit the rules to yourself to cut out competition for yourself. If they were to propose limits beyond your means you would be crying foul. I'm not knocking you for being human, but you need to see your argument for what it is. We all want to taylor the rules. Limits are what will make or break a franchise. No rules or requirements and anyone can be a dealer. Establish a territory to protect the dealer, require stocking product. You can't sell with an empty showroom. Minimum inventory requirements. All of these things will strengthen the brand by servicing the customer better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulthistle Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 As a back yard dealer, I don't want to take the chance and stock a bike that costs $7000 + and at best will make a couple of hundred profit, but is more likely to loose a couple of hundred.what do you think would improve sales in a slow economy? As I'm writing this my wife is telling me about an ATV we sold today. We made about $250.....WHOO HOOO!!! It takes a lot of those and a lot of other stuff to keep the gears turning. Is it a slow economy? Or did all of the day traders switch to real estate, and screw that up too! Looks like business as usual to me. But according to the news media the world economy is about to collapse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sideup Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 Potential profit from one new unit sale = $1585.5 x 20 =31,710.00 I know I said 20 new bikes a year, but how many dealers sell 20 new trials bikes a year? In the whole club last year I would guess an optimistic 8 new 2007's. This year 1 2008 model. So Far........ Just for reference: 2008 HHS (Health and Human Services) Poverty Guidelines Persons in Family or Household 48 Contiguous States 1 $10,400 2 14,000 3 17,600 4 21,200 5 24,800 6 28,400 7 32,000 8 35,600 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmck Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 What if they decide you need a showroom with location limits, and you need to stock 10 bikes, then charge you a franchise fee on gross sales? My point being, that you are wanting to taylor fit the rules to yourself to cut out competition for yourself. If they were to propose limits beyond your means you would be crying foul. I'm not knocking you for being human, but you need to see your argument for what it is. I believe that if the importers had those requirements originally, the whole trials scene would be better off today. If they called me tomorrow and told me I had to order 10 bikes and get a showroom I would have to make a choice; either play ball or go home. If they did that tomorrow, I would probably go home and not sell new trials bikes. Two years from now it might be a different story. I am not: wanting to taylor fit the rules to yourself to cut out competition for yourself. . I don't mind competing against a legitimate dealer, that's what makes the world go-round. It's the American way. What I don't like having to do is compete against someone who sells one or two or bikes out of their basement at cost just so their buddies can get a bike cheaper. In the long run, that hurts everyone, not just me. It's a short-sided greedy, I dont-care-about-anyone but me mentality. And it does nothing to promote the sport of trials. I'm not knocking you for being human, but you need to see your argument for what it is. My "argument" as you say, is that I am trying to help the sport move forward instead of just sitting back and watching it flounder along like it has for the past twenty years. It should be pretty obvious by now that what we have been doing isn't working real well. Whose fault is it? I think the responsibility has to be shared by all. We can talk all day and night about what we shouda-coulda-woulda done, but until the average rider decides it's time to make a change nothng is going to happen. Don't purchase a bike from from Billy-bob. Support your local dealer so he will be there when you need parts or service, or when you want to trade your older bike in for a new one. He is the one with the investment in tools, parts, accessories, etc. He is the one to work with the importer for you with warranty issues. How many new faces do you see at trials events? Chances are, you see the same faces today that you have been looking at for the last twenty years at events. Nothing wrong with that, except not very many new people are coming into the sport. Why? It is a lot of fun, reasonably safe, relatively inexpensive in the long run. Most of you guys are like me; you have been working on and riding bikes for a long time. You can change a tire, clean your own air filter, etc. Most Dad's today can't do those things. Again, why not? Most Dad's today lack the three "T"s... time, tools, and talent. Did you know that you can a "fully assembled" soap-box derby car today? Dad's haven't the three "T"s anymore to assist their kids in building one, but they have the money to buy one. If by some chance a youngster is introduced to trials, Dad is going to be looking for a dealer to purchase a bike and gear from. Most of them will not buy form Billy-bob. They want a dealer that can help them make an intelligent decision on what to buy and how to get started. They want a dealer that they can bring the bike back for when it needs service. I would like to do my little part in moving the sport forward, and I think there needs to be fewer Billy-bobs and instead, legitimate dealers. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 Sale of bike $450finance income 2% of sale $140 Acc and apparel purchased with bike $320 avg margin 30% $96 spare rear fender, levers and air filter $165 30% $49.50 Potential profit from trade 20% of 3800. $720 Finance income from used sale $76 Acc and apparel $180 30% margin $54 Potential profit from one new unit sale = $1585.5 x 20 =31,710.00 Without "nailing" anyone with extended wty or insurance. Although theft ins would be recomended. As a dealer you have to provide service for your customer, that doesn't always mean repair. It means helping your customer get what they want and be able to enjoy it. Their time is more important than yours, you save them time and hassle by fufilling their needs and giving them more time to enjoy their hobby. In the car business, more money is made on used cars than new ones! If a dealer makes 5 percent on average he is lucky on new cars. Noone pays MSRP! You could probably at least double that profit on good used cars! Look at CARMAX, yes they are a Dealer , of what? They do not even sell new!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsage Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 (edited) As one of the larger dealers here in the USA-We see fours and against in every ones comments-- Many credible things have been spoken here----as a dealer in the trials buisness for over 20yrs, both here and previously in the UK - with 2 retail outlets and bike sales there of over 300+ bikes a year, and sales of new bikes here of typically over 50+ bikes a year selling all 5 brands we can say that Trials alone here in the USA is STILL far from being a sole income buisness from a dealer aspect. We have over $150,000 invested in parts alone!--this buisness that takes every minute of the day and more!! Now--think about this a second--We pay EXACTLY the same price for a bike from the importer as the guy that , with the best intentions, buys one bike a year-and stocks----NOTHING!! Is this right or wrong?----- fair or unfair? I realise that all dealers have to start somewhere-- just as we did many years ago-- but -- when we embarked on this journey of passion we found the time and borrowed the money to buy stock -- then went to every trial we could-- being the first to arrive and the last to leave-- and if that meant working on customers bikes instead of riding then so be it----nothing has changed--we STILL do that today.--I am sure many customers would agree. We spend MANY hours a day sharing our knowledge with both customers and dealers -and we do this with pleasure. BUT! There comes a point where you just have to wonder--is it worth it? What can we do to better this situation-- we personaly believe a better incentive for the serious dealer especially from the importer--maybe base it on sales-- its not hard to work out! the more bikes you sell the better incentive you have--BUT-have a uniform price agrement between these dealers so that none of them dump bikes into another dealers market place. We already see many so called dealers selling bikes for less than $50 profit, just to say they sold a bike and remain a dealer--this HAS to stop. How can a dealer supply a bike to the other side of the country and service the customer correctly for $50--we have calls and E mails EVERY day from customers wanting that "special"deal--from all over the country and completly miss the guy 50 miles away trying to build a buisness in a already small market place.-- A uniform price would stop this. This kind of sales destroys second hand values --and can only continue to harm our sport. Why not have 2 or 3 main distributors for the importers across the country--who can then service the smaller dealer and customer more adequatley --is the importer so scared he is going to lose sales ??? It is very hard to say what is right and what is wrong--but something has to change--we cannot seem to go forward with as many so called dealers and no control of retail prices.--both for bikes ,parts AND accesories. If dealers and importers could just comunicate and work together as a network --maybe we can grow? Edited February 23, 2008 by trialsage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barcota Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 As one of the larger dealers here in the USA-We see fours and against in every ones comments--Many credible things have been spoken here----as a dealer in the trials buisness for over 20yrs, both here and previously in the UK - with 2 retail outlets and bike sales there of over 300+ bikes a year, and sales of new bikes here of typically over 50+ bikes a year selling all 5 brands we can say that Trials alone here in the USA is STILL far from being a sole income buisness from a dealer aspect. We have over $150,000 invested in parts alone!--this buisness that takes every minute of the day and more!! Now--think about this a second--We pay EXACTLY the same price for a bike from the importer as the guy that , with the best intentions, buys one bike a year-and stocks----NOTHING!! Is this right or wrong?----- fair or unfair? I realise that all dealers have to start somewhere-- just as we did many years ago-- but -- when we embarked on this journey of passion we found the time and borrowed the money to buy stock -- then went to every trial we could-- being the first to arrive and the last to leave-- and if that meant working on customers bikes instead of riding then so be it----nothing has changed--we STILL do that today.--I am sure many customers would agree. We spend MANY hours a day sharing our knowledge with both customers and dealers -and we do this with pleasure. BUT! There comes a point where you just have to wonder--is it worth it? What can we do to better this situation-- we personaly believe a better incentive for the serious dealer especially from the importer--maybe base it on sales-- its not hard to work out! the more bikes you sell the better incentive you have--BUT-have a uniform price agrement between these dealers so that none of them dump bikes into another dealers market place. We already see many so called dealers selling bikes for less than $50 profit, just to say they sold a bike and remain a dealer--this HAS to stop. How can a dealer supply a bike to the other side of the country and service the customer correctly for $50--we have calls and E mails EVERY day from customers wanting that "special"deal--from all over the country and completly miss the guy 50 miles away trying to build a buisness in a already small market place.-- A uniform price would stop this. This kind of sales destroys second hand values --and can only continue to harm our sport. Why not have 2 or 3 main distributors for the importers across the country--who can then service the smaller dealer and customer more adequatley --is the importer so scared he is going to lose sales ??? It is very hard to say what is right and what is wrong--but something has to change--we cannot seem to go forward with as many so called dealers and no control of retail prices.--both for bikes ,parts AND accesories. If dealers and importers could just comunicate and work together as a network --maybe we can grow? I agree with you all the way. In our many phone conversations we have discussed this in detail. One of the hardest things for me to understand is why organizations such as yours has to deal with the distributor selling bikes directly to the customer in competition with the dealer in his own territory. I do not know if this kind of situation exists in other countries. If so the entire sales structure has broken down and destroys local dealership profit margins and the incentive to become a dealer. It appears from what we have talked about, all of the US importers are guilty of this unfair practice. Things must change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 (edited) Well here goes probably gonna get blasted: I am strictly a consumer with little business experience. I appreciate our local dealers, especially the ones that are actually stocking parts and accessories, and bring them to events. If I break something then I can fix it. But for some it is usually easier for large orders to just order direct from from importer. Sorry local guys. I buy from local dealer and they have to order parts from the importer and then I have to drive to pick it up from dealer (1.5 hr drive) for $45 part, or wait for next event to get it and then hope like heck I can get the bike fixed before start time. I order from importer and about 4 days it's on my front porch. Somebody mentioned saving a couple hundred bucks, well heck yes this is a hobby and in order to do it I need to do it as cheaply as possible so I can continue to ride. So if that option is taken away then the customer would have no other choice but to buy from the "larger" dealer. A few not so affluent riders may have to choose between riding and gas to go to work but hey that is life, you do what you can afford. Now having large amounts of bikes, parts, service, etc.. at the events is great, but I don't think that will expand the sport of trials. That will only service and make happy the current participants, which is of course a good thing. I would like to know how many dealers (not importers) have an actual building with a showroom, parts and accessories, where someone can go and check it all out. The other mainstream motorcycle dealers have this advantage, Joe average sees a motorcrosser, thinks maybe I would like that. Goes to local dealership, looks at a few different bikes, sits on some bikes, talks with the staff and walks out with new bike. Now he buys parts and accessories from this dealership cuz he likes how they treated them. OK, Joe Average sees trials bike and thinks what is that, talks to trials bike owner and wants to know where to get one. Trials bike owner says "well come to an event and check out the 3 used bikes that are for sale, or call **** importer, or call Mr. Joe Dealer. None of these guys have one you can check out you just gotta order one and hope you like it." Our biggest problem with getting new riders is exposure we have none, whether it is actual dealerships in buildings or media coverage. Maybe I am for a established dealer network I don't know, I just like to save a couple hundred bucks. My 2 cents, but in this economy really worth 0.5 cents. Edited February 23, 2008 by ZIPPY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ishy Posted February 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 Well here goes probably gonna get blasted:I am strictly a consumer with little business experience. I appreciate our local dealers, especially the ones that are actually stocking parts and accessories, and bring them to events. If I break something then I can fix it. But for some it is usually easier for large orders to just order direct from from importer. Sorry local guys. I buy from local dealer and they have to order parts from the importer and then I have to drive to pick it up from dealer (1.5 hr drive) for $45 part, or wait for next event to get it and then hope like heck I can get the bike fixed before start time. I order from importer and about 4 days it's on my front porch. Somebody mentioned saving a couple hundred bucks, well heck yes this is a hobby and in order to do it I need to do it as cheaply as possible so I can continue to ride. So if that option is taken away then the customer would have no other choice but to buy from the "larger" dealer. I think you hit the nail on the head Zippy, most do buy parts online, importer direct cut's chaff and should lower the price because of this, if bikes need to be setup and checked for a customer, the small part time dealer could be a shipping and setup location for the importer or distributor, a fee of say $150 paid by the importer goes to fella setting the bike up, this gives them a bit for there time and knowledge and allows the importer to control the bike price. East west, distribution , the importer may need a good man in each, if so they would be the one shipping bikes to doorsteps and if desired by a customer to part time dealers for setup and PDI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hensley Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 Im sure sales are down in 08 and the economy is bad but not so sure the future of trials is so bleak. I dont know about the rest of the country but in my local area used trials bikes are selling like hot cakes Thanks to Geoff and Taddys recent success in endurocross and lms woods riders are flocking to trials bikes. Im sure this will eventualy generate some new sales Plus if this econony is making it tough to ride a trials bike just think of the hardship mx and enduro riders have which may be the break trials needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swooshdave Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 While I don't mean to compare trials motorcycles to firearms, the dealer situation does have similarities. For firearm sales in the US, all that is required is a FFL (federal firearms license). There are few restrictions on getting a license, and having a B&M ("brick and mortar" storefront) is definitely not one of them. There are hundreds, of not thousands of people with FFL, a vast majority buying from distributors, selling at a few percentage points over wholesale and saturating the market with low cost and no service. Obviously not an ideal situation for anyone. It is a complex situation, it which if you base it entirely on what the consumer gets, they get low purchase prices. What suffers is the the real dealer network which now has to survive strictly on service and accessories. Is there enough margin on those two items to remain profitable? Probably not, unless you are generating tremendous traffic. What will happen is that you will end up with centralized dealers which means localize service will no longer become available. You can't troubleshoot all problems over the internet. I don't believe that trials bikes can be a commodity, but it is a specialized market that needs special service. Following other models will hurt the industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgshannon Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 I'll go as far as say that Honda should make the large dealers put a Montesa on the floor. Depending on who you listen to, that is why we have no distributor now. American Honda apparently pushed (or is pushing) just such a move, which left the traditional US distribution path without any meaningful commitment, for the long term. Given such a questionable future, the position of "US Distributor" was too risky an investment. Thus, we have none. For folks not already aware of trials, and the Montesa history, there would be no interest in buying some "off the wall" brand, as Montesa, even in a Honda dealership. It would seem logical that the Montesa name would be stripped, and you would be buying Honda RTL models, just as they do in Japan. But, the US dealers (of all Japanese brands) have already experienced the dismal failure (back in the 70's) of trying to sell trials bikes in the American market. And, with only one model, Honda seems the most ill equiped to try such a move. Filling Yamaha dealerships with all the variations of the Scorpa lineup would be a much better place to start, if you were trying to find a market outside of the already existing trials folks. One model of trials bike, sitting in a Honda dealership, just doesn't appear to be a very wise move, on Honda's part. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilc0 Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 (edited) It would seem logical that the Montesa name would be stripped, and you would be buying Honda RTL models, That would make sense why you don't have any new monts coming in. Edited February 23, 2008 by bilc0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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