25 replies to this topic

[ScorpaF]

Just a couple of questions regarding this years solo championship, maybe John Collins or someone else at the ACU could answer. I make no excuse for asking these questions, my son wishes to ride in Expert A but has been given a very low priority in Expert B.

1) Why is there a need to split the classes?
2) Why have such a limited entry for Expert A?
3) Why did the entry rules change at the end of the season?
4) How did the ACU T&E Committee prioritise Expert B?
5) Isn't this going to stifle the development of our younger riders moving into the adult class?

ps. I've read and understood the entry 'qualifications' for Expert A - I just don't understand the relevance of them. Wasn't the whole idea to improve the entry numbers?

[John Collins]

Scorpa F - |You make several points and I will try in limited space to answer them
I must point out at the start however that it is not possible to analyse and dissect all decisions made throughout the year - and additionally we hold a Brit Champ organisers meeting to which all Organisers, Importers ( who support quite a few – especially in top class) Riders from Champ & Expert are invited. It is at this meeting that such details are finalised – basically working on the theory that we involve those that run them and also a selection of those who ride in them

I will try to answer a few of your queries as best I can.

1) We have always split classes – hence you have Championship & Expert. If the question means why split Expert A and Expert B – this is because the sections – as I have already explained some weeks ago will be geared toward this.

Basically – Champ – will be a smaller group of riders – probably about 12 who have aspirations and ability to compete on the International stage – and the Brit Champ will cater for these.

Expert - As in past – the better riders - some of whom are Champ riders on way up – and some on way down – and of course quite a few who no longer have time and inclination to practice and ride and Championship level – but still wish to take part. You will see there are several Ex Championship riders in 2009 who are in this class – they are still very good riders indeed – but no longer wish to face the Championship challenge. I totally agree with J D’s comments in TMX a few weeks ago that the top Championship class is now very specialised – and it will be the Expert class that will see some very close competition and be difficult to call.

Championship riders have to register – and to be accepted, need to be able to show via results past/present they have ability to attempt this class - this is a Duty of Care we have.

In almost all years Expert riders have had to register and give an indication of ability/experience and this has often also been used to form a priority of entry list – as in the past riders were unable to get an entry – and it was not really fair that a local lad for example (more of this later) may get a ride before an Expert who was contesting the whole Expert Championship. The criteria we use for looking at Experts is – Previous results in British Champ – either at Champ or Expert Class – we also take the top placings of the Novogar into account. Also top 5 Youth places. In Youith afew times ( Alex for example) we have made exception in past.

As far as the Youth riders are concerned it is top 5 placing’s that are important.

I think it important to actually look at the Expert class –and a few names that spring out are – Sam Connor – ex World and TDN runner, Ian Austermuhle, Dan Thorpe, Lee Sampson, Gary Mcdonald, James Fry etc by any stretch of imagination – even with Joe Baker moving to Enduro – the Expert standard is high – also remember that these Expert riders will be riding the same sections as Michael Brown, James Dabill and possibly Dougie Lampkin ets for 50% of time.

We feel we need to keep a benchmark and also ask riders to submit their previous results. This was done.

Now to move to the new class – Expert B. It may well be partly true that this is to encourage entries – but this is not the full story. It was fairly obvious that several Champ riders will be moving down to Experts – and as stated above this will become a very competitive class. So what about the other riders who wish to ride – but are not perhaps up top this standard – or very importantly – have not yet proved they are?

We originally intended to call the Expert B - The Qualifier class - but for 2009 at the Brit Champ meeting it was decided not to do this for 2009 – but we may in future. It is really just that I suppose – a stepping stone from good Centre runners or perhaps good Novogar riders into the British Champ – without diving in at the deep end. Please note this class is not a British Championship – but an ACU Championship – and it is very much intended as an introduction.

In reality – there will probably be some good local riders who may not have time, inclination or money to contest a full season at Expert level – the Expert B may allow them to dip a toe in the water and possibly aim for Expert a next.

Please remember that anyone who has applied for Expert A and not made initial list now has a far better opportunity to prove a point – merely by showing – via results in first few Expert B rides their ability – and make a simple request top move up.

I am not going to mention names – but quite a few years back – a rider was very disgruntled because he was not included in Championship class – when Steve Colley, Dougie and Graham were battling it out. He rode in a few rounds as an Expert – and finished almost stone wall last – so we were I think justified.

It is not an exact science – and the one good thing about Trials, as opposed to some other disciplines is that it is very easy to quickly prove how good a rider is – by a few top results in a very short space of time – and then as I have said things can certainly be adjusted.

There is one important factor I believe - There has been a fair amount of comment - including on TC that the Brit Champ needed a shot in the arm. Obviously we did not predict such a dire economic situation , but some of the changes made - and some further ones planned - have to be worth a shot.

Will they work? - I do not know - but remember it is not just me who makes these dicisions

Will everyone be happy ? I doubt it. But finally it has to be worth a tryu - for the other option is to do nothing - easy perhaps - and less aggro - but there wwe go

[ScorpaF]

Thanks for taking the time to reply, it is appreciated. But judging by the list of riders wishing to participate, 83 in total, and only 55 places available, low entries aren't going to be a problem. Getting an entry could be a problem for the unlucky ones at the bottom of the list especially at the more centrally located and popular rounds.

It would be interesting to know how many riders aren't riding the course they applied for. As for the selection process, as you say its not an exact science, I'm guessing last placed rider in Expert A would struggle to make top 10 in Expert B! There's a lot of good riders in Expert B that may not wish to ride Expert A. Likewise a few others lower down the ranking may relish the challenge - some riders are trying to up their game! And what would be the point requesting a move up part way through the championship - you'd just end up with two half scores.

From our own viewpoint its very disappointing for a rider to find he is suddenly no longer allowed to compete on the same stage with the same riders he has spent his entire national trials career competing with - the interest is fading already!

[trialsnutterman]

John

If everyone was to enter the first round, probably won't happen but let say it did, who will take priority in the Expert B, I ask as there would be 60 ish entries if everyone entered without including the priority 2 riders hence some of the riders on the priority 1 list wouldn't get a ride, will it be on alphabetical order, ability or previous attendance.

[trialsnutterman]

Scorpaf

Did your son ride the expert route at all last year? just trying to work out way he is not on the priority 1 list if he is capable of riding the Expert A.

I shouldn't worry about there been 83 riders on the list, there is always loads more riders on the list than actually enter, last year I don't think a single one of the rounds had a full entry.

I'm just a little worried every one may just enter the very first round as it is a new round to the championship and under a new format increasing interest. I reckon if he doesn't get in the first one he should easy get in to the 2nd round then scoring points shouldn't be a problem if he is Expert A standard so then he will be guaranteed a entry in the rest of the rounds I believe.

[ScorpaF]

No he didn't ride at any of the Expert rounds - its a long boring story - he was actually still a youth rider but since his birthday was early in the year opted to geta 250 and ride as an adult. Therefore not riding his last year in A class - hence no result - hence no place in expert A. Bit of a bummer 'cos had we have known then he would have contested A class.

[John Collins]

I think we may be worrying about a hypothetical case – and while it would actually be pleasing to have to solve this problem i.e. too many wanting to ride in Brit Champ – I fear it may not arise.

However to look at it quickly. Any event or Championship which has a restricted entry will have to have some means of giving some priority. This could equally happen in Novogar, Sammy Miller etc - and while it usually does not – it can happen. Various methods are used – often first received etc – this itself can cause problems as many of us know – and I certainly suffered a few times when I used to ride British Enduro Championships etc ( and some apparently may for this years first round)

As I have said , as far as British Trials Championship is concerned – we have worked on a priority list – taking into account past performance in Brit Champ. Youth Champ and Novogar. The first year we attempted to prioritise – some riders will recall we asked for far more events – and found ourselves trying to assess the abilities/results based on all sorts of events. This was difficult even when we just looked at Nationals – we found it difficult to compare a rider who came say 3rd in National A with a rider who came 3rd in National B ( different event/weather/venue/sections etc) far more difficult than we thought. When it came to riders sending us results about how they had fared in Centre events it got worse – obviously because we were not comparing like for like ( 3rd Expert in W.S Wales is not really same as 3rd Expert in Yorkshire!)

So – the standard introduced was the British Champ and the Novogar top placing,s ( plus Youth Champ)

I think confusion may now be creeping in because we have the Expert B and that is understandable
( getting a bit confused myself). But if we take a step back , and look at past Expert.

There is a 55 entry limit. If we had 85 riders, 30 would not get a ride.
This year there is a 55 rider limit – if we get 85, 30 will not get a ride.

In the past – one would hope that the priority list worked, and the 30 who did not get the ride would be the lower order of Expert list – based on past results. If you had not previously ridden or got good results you would be down this end – probably waiting for undersubscribed event.

The only real difference is that now the Experts are divided.
So – Champ riders will get a ride, Expert A riders will get a ride – and after this the Expert B ( priority 1) will get a ride – if there are too many Expert B riders – it will be exactly as it was before in my example , where some could not get a ride.

I appreciate that those who did not ride last year are at a disadvantage – but this is inevitable on any attempt at results based priority – if you did not ride – you ain’t got the evidence – even if you mates who are no better than you can – because they have. We have actually in past had Expert riders complain because they were not on list – but then failed to enter a Brit Champ round in their own area when there was space for them

I do understand the point – but again I am sure that if riders get entry in on time – and produce good results – I am sure it will sort itself out. I must say that personally the original idea of a sort of qualifier ie 10 up and 10 down league sort of thing is starting to appeal to me?

[ScorpaF]

Why can't the rounds host more than 55 riders? The World round at Hawkstone catered for 77 riders, and one European round we rode in Spain had well over 100, might have been nearer 120 (the queues where stupid - good job it was hot)! But 55 seems a bit mean.

I was also thinking along the same lines as trialsnutterman that there will be a full entry at Scarborough (first round and fairly central) and also our closest trial - to which we probably won't get an entry! Next round, Lochaber, probably won't get oversubscribed due to the distance involved. So we might get an entry - but do you think my impoverished student is going to want to drive up to Lochaber for a trial when he's already one round down? Yet, there is no doubt he would (especially since its normally a good trial) if he was guaranteed a ride at all rounds. But then again, he isn't madly keen anyway since he isn't competing with the riders he wants to compete with - irrespective of whether he's capable or qualified in the mind of the ACU.

Looking down the priority list and I must say there are a few eyeopeners (in all classes). A couple in championship class! Expert A looks okay (I'm off to BetFred for an each way punt on that one) but I can see at least 6 riders in Priority 2 who will outride 6 riders in Priority 1. There seems to be a few, dare I say, no-hopers in both Expert B lists and a few who really should be in Expert A. But that's just my 'finger on the pulse' opinion. I suppose it's a thankless task - although a self imposed and needless one in my opinion. I'm sure the whole championship would be better if the riders just registered their intentions and rode the trials.

Or let 'em all ride whichever class they fancy and ditch any rider who doesn't score a point all season. That goes for all the classes. Promote the best and drop the rest.

[Nigel Dabster]

ScorpaF, on Feb 5 2009, 10:13 PM, said:

Why can't the rounds host more than 55 riders? The World round at Hawkstone catered for 77 riders, and one European round we rode in Spain had well over 100, might have been nearer 120 (the queues where stupid - good job it was hot)! But 55 seems a bit mean.

I was also thinking along the same lines as trialsnutterman that there will be a full entry at Scarborough (first round and fairly central) and also our closest trial - to which we probably won't get an entry! Next round, Lochaber, probably won't get oversubscribed due to the distance involved. So we might get an entry - but do you think my impoverished student is going to want to drive up to Lochaber for a trial when he's already one round down? Yet, there is no doubt he would (especially since its normally a good trial) if he was guaranteed a ride at all rounds. But then again, he isn't madly keen anyway since he isn't competing with the riders he wants to compete with - irrespective of whether he's capable or qualified in the mind of the ACU.

Looking down the priority list and I must say there are a few eyeopeners (in all classes). A couple in championship class! Expert A looks okay (I'm off to BetFred for an each way punt on that one) but I can see at least 6 riders in Priority 2 who will outride 6 riders in Priority 1. There seems to be a few, dare I say, no-hopers in both Expert B lists and a few who really should be in Expert A. But that's just my 'finger on the pulse' opinion. I suppose it's a thankless task - although a self imposed and needless one in my opinion. I'm sure the whole championship would be better if the riders just registered their intentions and rode the trials.

Or let 'em all ride whichever class they fancy and ditch any rider who doesn't score a point all season. That goes for all the classes. Promote the best and drop the rest.

Scarborough fairly central? That makes Birmingham deep south then?

Tell you what, tell us your riders name and we can give you our opinion as to whether you're right or wrong and this great injustice can get sorted?

[Cota Kid]

As this is a British Championship, Scarborough for that matter anywhere across the north of England would be fairly central for riders travelling from Scotland.

[John Collins]

To be fair – I did say at the start it would not be possible to start 3 weeks before first event to analyse and dissect the whole thing. This has already been done over a long period and in conjunction with those I have mentioned.

I have spent a fair bit of time explaining , but will try to just answer a few final points.

Number 55 - was actually 50 – we increased to 55. I am not sure if example of higher numbers in WC is actually that accurate – I think not – BUT in any case there is an important point – UEM & WC are held mostly between April – Sept – with bulk in between ( which ball’s up our calendar no end) – in UK we are running between March 1st and end Sept ( usually last round is in Oct) - so available hours for us are limited. The start times etc have long been worked out – and the Organisers in general do not wish to start a lot earlier ( getting Observers in place etc , practice on morning sometimes and so on)
Please also remember – and I speak as someone who is involved in running a round – the event – as most others – does not just nicely finish when the last rider clocks in – in BC we have presentation and other things – and Club members are usually involved for quite a time afterwards – last few years I am usually still in car park picking up crap until it gets dark. So whichever way you look at it – the daylight hours we have – in some of the events are limited. The 1min 30 sec time limit in sections has an effect on start intervals – which are 1.30 ( I did not understand this either – but trust me – I have had it explained lots of times and it is a fact)

Before we look at starting more a minute – this was done – and caused other problems – so for 2009 at least the format is set.

I am afraid the last para goes against what you are trying to achieve Scorpa – “ Let them all ride and ditch any rider who does not score a point” - is that not the exact problem you have?

As your son did not score a point last year – you would advocate he be ditched? 32 riders scored points in Expert lass last year – so on that theory we would ditch everyone else?

I think the present system will work out fairer – but accept it may take time – and I acknowledge that it will have hiccups at first – inevitable.

Finally – I understand your sentiment about not riding say in Scotland if he cannot get a ride in all rounds – but that theory is flawed and will only mean future problems – as no points will ever be accumulated. I cannot see a system possible where a rider with no points/results on given criteria could really be expected to be guaranteed a ride in all rounds – and if this is not possible they should just will not bother ?

I honestly think he needs to enter when he can and prove a point – and start moving up the ranking.

I have been Sec/Clerk of Course for BC when we took entries on “ first through letterbox principle – which you would have to do on your advocated system – it was a nightmare – those living within driving distance just popped them through my letterbox – and those from further away had to rely on good old GPO . Additionally – think how a rider who had perhaps supported say 6 rounds and was doing well would feel if he did not get a round in the 7th ? We really do have to have a system – it is not cast in stone –there will be movement when riders prove they should be upgraded – and more likely several will move when they realise they have been perhaps to ambitious.

It is in the melting pot – and it is the first year of new format – there will be problems – but please just get your lad to enter the first few rounds and see what happens

[ScorpaF]

Nigel Dabster, on Feb 6 2009, 05:29 AM, said:

Scarborough fairly central? That makes Birmingham deep south then?

Tell you what, tell us your riders name and we can give you our opinion as to whether you're right or wrong and this great injustice can get sorted?

Actually Scarborough is South of central - the geographical centre of the UK is Haltwhistle in Northumberland.

I didn't mention any great injustice - just fact that my son would like to ride (and is just as capable as some of the riders in Expert A and equally probably not as good as some of the riders in Expert B!) in Expert A.

Not much point naming him, it wouldn't make any difference - I'm surprised you can't work it out. I'll help you, he frequently used to be at the top of the results on the bike you hate and advise no one to ride because they're rubbish, the Scorpa 125 four stroke!


John, my remarks about ditching the riders was a bit tongue in cheek - but I did mean riders who had previously tried!

[Nigel Dabster]

Whilst scarborough may be the geographical centre you know quite well I was refering to the geographical spread of riders, and as only gary macdonald is north of you its not central in anyway is it.

I do not hate the Scorpa 125 its a great little bike.
For observers.

havn't a clue who your exceptional talent is never heard of anyone doing any good on a 125 scorpa.

Edited by Nigel Dabster, 07 February 2009 - 07:18 AM.

[ScorpaF]

Nigel Dabster, on Feb 7 2009, 07:17 AM, said:

havn't a clue who your exceptional talent is never heard of anyone doing any good on a 125 scorpa.

Now now, no need for the sarcasm, exceptional and talent where not mentioned - merely capable and willing.

You'll not enjoy this photo, taken a few years ago, of him 'not doing well on a Scorpa 125'.

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[Nigel Dabster]

Only other person I've ever seen ride one well as that was Gubian.
He did loose a euro championship because of it though!