49 replies to this topic

[malcra]

I didn't ride the last two SM rounds last weekend (due to work commitments), but i here on the (non TC) grapevine about possible changes to machine eligibility for next year ?

Just wondering if this is fact or fiction, or if there are any other changes planned ?

[TURBO]

come on then spill the beans matey,share the goss!

[Woody]

Haven't heard all of the changes (when I say all, I don't know how many there are) but what I have heard is that modified bikes in the pre-unit class will have to compete in class 8 which is British Specials and Twinshock. This would include Ariels of Gaunt, Willmore, Grant etc. and presumably the Matchless of Len Hutty who rode this past weekend.

Doesn't affect me in any way but, IF IT IS CORRECT, not sure at all about this as a change. Those bikes, as good as they are, don't stand a chance against well ridden Fantics etc. unless the trial is very very easy (for riders of that standard I mean, as obviously, easy is a subjective term) So is the aim to rid the championship of them altogether in order that more standard spec machines re-emerge - based on an assumption that those bikes won't enter at the moment as they are out classed? The riders who use these modified Ariels etc are very competitive so will they bother entering if they are no longer competitive in their class? That is one school of thought but I don't necessarily subscribe to that as there is still the easier route option for less capable riders on fairly standard bigger bikes, so they aren't in direct competition with the modified bikes, therefore no reason not to enter.

Machine eligibility in Pre65 is a nightmare, nearly all the bikes running in the Miller rounds are modified in some way, yet 2009 spec James, Cubs etc can run alongside virtually standard bikes in the same class - unless they are subject to rule changes too - if so, class 8 is going to be huge next year.... I don't know what the answer is and there is a danger of class overload trying to cater for everything.

The Miller series was originally intended for Brit bikes of standard spec and whilst it always had modified machines amongst the entry, they weren't as far developed as today's. For whatever reasons, support slowly but surely dwindled and if memory serves, a trail bike class was introduced to boost numbers. Eventually, about 7/8 years ago twinshocks were included.

The series already runs 2 routes, so no-one can say that the format doesn't cater for a wide variety of bikes and rider abilities. The trials are of a more gentle nature than the other national series, the Traditional, and although some riders cross over and compete in either, generally they attract two different sets. Better riders accept that they aren't going to be tested too hard in most events. So if the emphasis is more on catering for more standard bikes and older twinshocks, maybe a bit more class structuring could be done to accomodate and encourage riders on older twinshocks and standard bikes. Then you don't have someone on a KT competing directly against a Fantic.

On the championship harder route, maybe think about Pre-77 and Post-77 classes for twinshocks, or even Pre-74, Pre-80 and Post-80 with a British Special class for the modified British bikes (up to and over 350cc?) The non-championship route could run the existing classes it has now.

Food for thought and would need more reasoning but there could be quite an imbalance of abilities in class 8 next year - although riders in all classes do have the option of riding the easier non-championship route

[malcra]

I think this machine eligibility is the 'change' I heard mentioned. I rode the SM series first in the year when all twinshocks were allowed (not just pre-75 Spanish) which I think is 4-5 years ago. Then there were lots of Brit bikes (standard or otherwise) but less than 10 riders in Class 8 (I used to score points in the rounds then :-). It has changed, and though for me personally, the bike i ride is irrelevant (I can drop lots of marks on any bike), but the standard of the rounds are right for me and lots of other riders who do find the Normandale series (with one route) a bit too hard (in some cases).

Points arising, are the said Ariel's now not meeting eligibility, when they did before ? or are the rules now being applied ? Will taking Messers Wilmore, Gaunt and Hutty out of the pre-65 classes mean that there are more entries ? Will they now ride twinshocks anyway to compete (I know where there is an ex-works TLR250, cheaper than an Ariel :-)

I like the idea of pre- and post-76 (* select your year) classes; maybe I will finish off that Model 80 project loitering in Gav's workhop then.

[B40RT]

 malcra, on Nov 17 2009, 06:41 PM, said:

Will taking Messers Wilmore, Gaunt and Hutty out of the pre-65 classes mean that there are more entries ?

What it could mean - is making sections less severe (to take marks off a relatively select number of riders) - previously at the expense of the of the majority on less competitive/more standard bikes .

[Woody]

 B40RT, on Nov 17 2009, 07:17 PM, said:

What it could mean - is making sections less severe (to take marks off a relatively select number of riders) - previously at the expense of the of the majority on less competitive/more standard bikes .

But what you also have to ask is how many people are there that want to ride a standard Pre65 bike - they're bloody awful generally.

Are the numbers of those riders diminishing? - the riders who did use them in the day were teenagers or in their twenties generally and fit enough to handle them. All are getting older and less able to physically handle the cumbersome beasts. More are switching to lightweight Bantams that they can manage, manhandle if they get into trouble and therefore enjoy their day out rather than lying trapped and writhing under 300lbs of british iron with a broken pelvis. Pre65 bikes they are not but it keeps the riders in the game.

The sections in the Miller rounds really don't need to be any easier, the easier of the two routes is generally suitable for any machine, although sometimes, one or two sections turn out harder than the plotters thought, but that can always happen. If there is a movement to gently 'oust' the twinshocks and specials, I seriously wonder if there would be a sustainable series left. To do that there would need to be a re-think on the Traditional series format which hosts very few twinshocks or pre65 in the main, or even create a new series just for twinshocks and British specials.

Difficult one to judge really, both series are well supported but depending on your viewpoint, both by the wrong types of machine....

[Andy M]

 Woody, on Nov 17 2009, 07:35 PM, said:

If there is a movement to gently 'oust' the twinshocks and specials, I seriously wonder if there would be a sustainable series left.

Don't say that, I am just in the process of registering my TLR. Pitley has twisted my arm to come and have a go next year.

[B40RT]

 Woody, on Nov 17 2009, 07:35 PM, said:

But what you also have to ask is how many people are there that want to ride a standard Pre65 bike - they're bloody awful generally.

Are the numbers of those riders diminishing? - the riders who did use them in the day were teenagers or in their twenties generally and fit enough to handle them. All are getting older and less able to physically handle the cumbersome beasts. More are switching to lightweight Bantams that they can manage, manhandle if they get into trouble and therefore enjoy their day out rather than lying trapped and writhing under 300lbs of british iron with a broken pelvis. Pre65 bikes they are not but it keeps the riders in the game.

The sections in the Miller rounds really don't need to be any easier, the easier of the two routes is generally suitable for any machine, although sometimes, one or two sections turn out harder than the plotters thought, but that can always happen. If there is a movement to gently 'oust' the twinshocks and specials, I seriously wonder if there would be a sustainable series left. To do that there would need to be a re-think on the Traditional series format which hosts very few twinshocks or pre65 in the main, or even create a new series just for twinshocks and British specials.

Difficult one to judge really, both series are well supported but depending on your viewpoint, both by the wrong types of machine....

You don't have to "oust" the specials, just be honest enough to admit what they are.

[Woody]

I agree - just wondering if there is a train of thought to try and move the series back to more standard bikes. Not saying there is, just thinking out loud really

Problem is - how do you define special? Yorkshire Classic don't even allow shock position to be moved - if you move them and don't change anything else, is it a special. ANother subjective topic altough obviously - there is no question to answer with some bikes

[gups]

Isn't the man himself famous for fettling bikes to get the best out off them, some off the mentioned riders would still win on any bike. How about twinshocks with,front discs,mono shocks that have been converted to twinshocks, how special is special or am i opening another can of worms ?

[Woody]

 gups, on Nov 17 2009, 09:40 PM, said:

Isn't the man himself famous for fettling bikes to get the best out off them, some off the mentioned riders would still win on any bike. How about twinshocks with,front discs,mono shocks that have been converted to twinshocks, how special is special or am i opening another can of worms ?

No they wouldn't - why do you think they modify them - have you ever ridden a standard HT5 Ariel

All those twinshock variations you mention are prohibited by the national championship rules.

Unlike pre65 bikes, twinshocks are perfectly useable in their standard form

[huntmaster]

 Woody, on Nov 17 2009, 05:16 PM, said:

No they wouldn't - why do you think they modify them - have you ever ridden a standard HT5 Ariel
All those twinshock variations you mention are prohibited by the national championship rules.Unlike pre65 bikes, twinshocks are perfectly useable in their standard form

Yep. 300 + lb production HT's weren't built after 1958 and have little in common with many of the bikes out there now. The machine is perhaps most famous in it's early sixties "Millerized" form (the pattern for most every pre-65 competition Ariel out there now) despite the fact that no such production bike was ever built!
How do you "regulate" that?

In fact, thanks to "donour" VH's, NH's, pre-65 aftermarket frames, barells, and various cycle parts, there are more HT's in existance now then were ever built at Selly Oak or Small Heath!

[mparrynorton]

Surely this sentiment also applies to the likes of bsa's etc how many C15T's were actually built? especially now with the use of modern otter frames it seems these bikes fall under the radar and the Ariel riders who have success become targets you still need some skill to keep your feet up

[malcra]

 Woody, on Nov 17 2009, 10:16 PM, said:

Unlike pre65 bikes, twinshocks are perfectly useable in their standard form

Doesn't stop enhancements and modifications though. To be honest, its all part of the sport (outside of the riding) and for rebuilding my Jumbo from scratch and then riding for a couple of seasons made it for me. I wasn't going to exactly win anything. Comparing my bike with Kevin Nolan's (and others) did make me realise what more i could have done (and how much more i could have spent)

Perhaps the trials version of 'Scrapheap Challenge'; take 6 teams/riders, find ropey twinshocks (Montesa Cota 247, Honda TL125, Yamata TY175 etc) and then after 10 hours of workshop modification time, compete in a trial :-) Its probably true to say the best rider, rather than the best bike will win, but would be good fun.

[gups]

Having ridden a Norton 500T ridgid i do understand,but i have seen a good rider have a go on it a hop it all over the place. The twin shocks ridden by the top championship contenders are highly modified, compared to the bulk of the entry, because they are not competative but i still think if you put Nolan, Whiffin , Baker ,Pye they would still be out in front. There bikes are far from standard but would Joe average become a winner if he were to ride them . Im sure if disc brakes were allowed they would all have them.