duckwizard Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 What is the best carb choice for a tiger cub 200 for Pre-65 events. is there a restriction on tyre choice, ie X1 michelins allowed ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g4321 Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 Dell Orto carbs on their bikes, but lots of people use Keihin carbs from old Honda's. Stricktly speaking are Honda Keihin carbs or dellorto carbs in the spirit of P65 bikes - no. They are certainly not legal in the P65 Scottish and I think they are frowned upon in the Scottish Championships (correct me if I am wrong). Many guys seem to be running Amal Concentrics but these apparently give poor low speed fueling. Mick Grant was the first to use a modified Villiers two stroke carb - dont know model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t-shock 250 Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 Hmmmmm can of worms here, the amount of effort that goes into making modern components look like "pre 65" ones is an industry in itself. I think people just pay lip service to "pre 65" rules these days, otherwise there wouldn't be a single bike in the pre 65 Scottish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Stricktly speaking are Honda Keihin carbs or dellorto carbs in the spirit of P65 bikes - no. The spirit of Pre65? what is that exactly these days? I don't wish to start an argument on this as that is certainly not the intention, but from the bikes I see, the original concept of the spirit of Pre65 is long gone. Having owned a standard B40, if I tried to ride it on todays Pre65 sections it would put me in touch with the spirit world, I know that much.... The Sammy Miller series was intended to cater for standard, unmodified British bikes and the sections were to be of the nature of 50s and 60s sections. This year they have allowed Spanish bikes to participate so I did a local round on my Ossa, mainly to get some time on the bike after not being able to ride most of the year and as it was a nice ride around the Clee Hills. All of the Pre65 front to mid runners were on modified bikes. I tried a 500 Ariel afterwards and was genuinely shocked at how good it was. I could hop the back end for chrise sake..... It was as light as my MAR, steered better, front forks were better, brakes better and it put the power to the ground better. And it is eligible and has been ridden in the Pre65 Scottish. None of the top riders in the Pre65 Scottish ride unmodified bikes. Modern steering, modern fork internals in old casings, alloy hubs machined from billet, alloy rims, modern clutches, primary chain drives converted to belt drive, cubs and BSAs that perform better than standard TLR Hondas. Hundreds, and for 4-strokes, thousands, of pounds spent on the engines. You only had to watch Mick Grant go up pipeline last year on his cub. When did cubs ever go like that? I defy anyone to repeat that ride on a standard cub - I don't mean to clean it, i just mean the way the bike performed. So where does the spirit of Pre65 begin/stop? Damned if I know now, things have moved on too far. I don't understand how people can be enthusiastic about riding British Bikes, but only after they have modified them out of all recognition. If they are British bike fans why not ride them as standard and limit the mods to just carburettors and electronic iginitions. These are the weak areas that can stop a bike from running. Modernising those components makes them reliable and owners won't be pushing them everywhere due to worn out carbs and electrics, but riding them instead, which is after all the point. Leave the rest the same as the factory made it. Then it is a 'truer' Brit bike, suspension, steering weight etc. But they are awful to ride like that though aren't they. It's why Malcom Rathmell won't ride one again. Quote - they were crap then and they're crap now. Personally, I see putting a modern carburettor on the cub as a really minor issue. After all, the intention is only to make the engine carburate more effectively which means, most importantly, consistently and reliably. The old British carbs, worn out, dribbling and flooding just mean you are more likely to spend time pushing the bike than riding it and there is not much point or fun in that. The owner is more likely to give up on it and chuck it back in the shed. Yes the carb will improve performance slightly but not that much in isolation. Not as much as Honda internals........ Having said all this I am certainly not against the modified bikes. I don't think they should be banned as things have gone too far and I think the whole of the Pre65 scene, specifically what can or can't be modified, needs looking at as the 'spirit of Pre65' has changed now. I can't understand why the Otter BSA feaured elsewhere can't participate in the Pre65 Scottish. I know the oil in frame isn't Pre65 but neither are the fiddle forks, lightweight hubs, modern engine internals and so on of the bikes that are allowed to compete. As good as that BSA looks it is still no match for the 'regulars'. Finally, please don't think I am anti Pre65 as I'm most certainly not. I love anything to do with off-road and I love the ingenuity of the people that do the mods. Wish I had a halfpenny's worth of their ability. I'm just confused about the 'spirit' issue nowadays. There are some beautiful creations out there, It's nice to see them used, I've ridden a few and I want one (some..!!) .... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinnied Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 What is the best carb choice for a tiger cub 200 for Pre-65 events.is there a restriction on tyre choice, ie X1 michelins allowed ? Amal Mk 1 http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/ This qualifies for Scottish PRE 65 Vinnied Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckwizard Posted December 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Having read all the comments, it seems that eligibility is not an issue to some. I have a Keihin at present which I assumed was not a eligible carb to use. I assume that I can now change my original suspension for Betors or Falcons etc. Cannot see any tiger cubs using the standard units I have on the bike. The alloy rims will also be staying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g4321 Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Basically unless you want to ride your bike in Scotland,then you can do what you want to i The way i read your message he could go and fit a disk brake front end from a Gas Gas or similar and it would still be legal South of the Border? Keihan or Dellorto carbs are not in the spirit of P65 bikes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Come on g4321, you have to be a bit more realistic than that. You can't just say fitting those carbs is not in the spirit of Pre65 therefore he shouldn't do it. Why not? As I said before, define the 'spirit'. Visit any Pre65 trial in England/Wales (I obviously can't speak about Scottish rules/regs for individual clubs) and the vast majority of bikes are modified in one way or another. By definition, that means not too many people want to ride standard Pre65 bikes, therefore to my mind that defines the spirit. Should you also not fit modern shocks, handlebars, exhaust systems. Where do you draw the line? You're giving duckwizard the impression that the bike shouldn't be modified at all. He's going to take it to a trial and then wonder why most of the others have been, unless the regs and rules imposed by the Scottish clubs really are that strict. But then how is eligibilty policed? As t-shock 250 has already pointed out there are bunches of very clever people around making modern components look like Pre65 items. There is only a demand for this because people want it. They prefer to modify the components of their bikes to make them work better than the originals - or to work better than other peoples. And that is because they want to win or do as best as possible. Maybe that is the spirit - to win by whatever means it takes..... And I'm sorry duckwizard, but in spite of all this I still can't offer you any advice on the which is the best carb to use as I simply don't know......... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g4321 Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Come on g4321, you have to be a bit more realistic than that. You can't just say fitting those carbs is not in the spirit of Pre65 therefore he shouldn't do it.Why not? Sorry to cause such controversy with my comment. Lets just say that with the comments I have overheard about P65 bikes over the last few years at the Scottish modern carbs and forks are the two major things that appear to be frowned upon. As you can see from Duckwizard's profile (hate calling people by these 'Mickey Mouse' names) he comes from Scotland and knowing he hopes to eventually ride the Scottish P65 trial then there is little point in him fitting a 'modern' carb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Sorry to cause such controversy with my comment. Don't worry about that - it's what a forum is for...... Everyone has and is entitled to an opinion and I'm certainly not on a high horse over this. For me, it is a simple case of what I can't understand anymore, for the life of me, is this 'spirit of Pre65' thing. I've heard it from various quarters, usually in trials from someone who is not winning that day, but their mods are ok when they are winning...... I spend a fair bit of the year competing alongside and sometimes in Pre65. I've been lucky enough also to have ridden some of the top bikes, Mick's James, Peter Salt's FB, trick 500 Ariel. From my experience, modified bikes are the norm, not all to that degree though obviously. I noticed Duckwizard was in Scotland but I don't know where. Could be Southernmost and therefore competes in Pre65 in England where virtually anything goes now (discs would be pushing it but I'll bet the Paolis have been done somewhere.....) If he rides a standard bike he'd be at a disadvantage in England. May not matter to him I don't know, but it is why I did say I don't know how things are policed in Scottish club trials. I think things have progressed way to far in Pre65 now to stop modifications. Too many bikes have been done. Their owners wouldn't ride standard bikes by choice otherwise they wouldn't have modified them in the first place. Some people would surely go bankrupt as a whole industry would fail....... I think they should let all modified bikes compete in the Scottish as it makes no sense to me at all how they differentiate which bike is elligible or not. Some seriously modified bikes compete whereas some that are less competitive cannot. My feeling is let them all in and have a trophy for the best standard machine also, as well as the current awards. Riders can choose to ride as standard or modified bike and standard bikes aren't then competing against modified. Wouldn't be hard to judge if a bike was modified or not - just ride it over a few rocks...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinm Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Not sure what all the fuss is about "modified" Pre65's. I can talk from experience......I rode one in a trial once! It was the maiden outing for a Trials Cub that my dad had "modified" for a friend, it cost a fortune, had every alloy trick component money could buy and everything worked superbly. It did however have a standard frame, standard forks, 200 motor and the original hubs. My overall opinion....a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie prescott Posted September 25, 2015 Report Share Posted September 25, 2015 Hi Guy's. Just an update,in 2015. The best carb to use on a trials Cub is a VM 22 Mikuni, as used on a pit bike,( and "Mini Otter") and they are cheap compared with the rest of the outlay thrown at the humble Triumph Cub, now-a-days. Regards Charlie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) HI, I think that I can still define a 'spirit of pre-65'. I won't bore you by reminding you just why I KNOW I am right, but the salient fact is that we created the sport because WE COULDN'T AFFORD A NEW SPANISH BIKE - AND THERE WERE NO SECONDHAND ONES YET............. So the spirit, if anything, was to continue to ride in a sport without spending a fortune. Hardly describes today's situation, does it????????? Edited September 26, 2015 by laird387 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallo Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 Fuel injection is the way to go. Currently working on a system hidden inside an AMAL, proper job, and programmable. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie prescott Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) Hi Guy's. Hi Wallo. I hope the second mapping in the program puts a limiter for road use,so that you can just flick a switch when you get to a thirty mile an hour speed restriction ? Some of these new fourth or fifth gear clusters do make the bikes fast on the road I have noticed. Above is joking ,but has anything changed from 2004 until now? All that I think has changed is that there is more commercial interest in keeping the band wagon or circus rolling, just for the few to make the living they have enjoyed over the past years supplying the demand for the so called upgrades. And anything suggested that might stamp on there toes is treated with disgust, that someone may suggest that there may be, a cheaper way into the sport! But I now see a light at the end of the tunnel all be it a long way off. 2015 has been an interesting year!!! Regards Charlie. Edited September 26, 2015 by charlie prescott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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