[jon v8]

Sorry if its been done to death before,but recently I've been reading books like 20 years of Twinshock Trials. Looking at some of the British lightweight bikes from the era of SHM ruling with his Bultaco,it made me realise that companies like Greeves,Sprite,James and Dot were pretty much all up there with it.In another book,the British two stroke trials bikes one,it says more than once about supplies of Villiers engines drying up.Cotton for instance used the 170cc Minerelli engine,but it seems it was not very popular - compared to the Villiers.
So what happened to Villiers engines ? I guess they were owned by NVT,were they just dropped as a decision made by the parent company,or were they too costly to produce ? I just wonder how far the small bike producers would have carried on if they were not stuck for engines.

[Big John]

Well in 1968/69 NVT owned the AJS brand and they decided to build their own 2 stroke trials bike the 37A/T and they wanted to use the Villiers exclusively for thier own product. Also AJS made the "Stormer" MX machine with an uprated Starmaker Villiers power plant. I think the NVT company was also part of Manganeze Bronze Holdings. Greeves switched to the Austrian built Puch 6 speed 169cc power-plant for their new Pathfinder, which the factory lads hatee, all except Mick Wilkinson, his brother Bill loathed the Puch engined bike and he shifted to Ossa imported by his long time pal Peter Fletcher.

Rest is history I suppose!

Big John

[bultaco49]

There was a good series of articles about the history of Villiers in the British Two Stroke Club journal some years ago which gives a brief overview of the convoluted decline and disappearance of the Villiers marque. You can find a reprint of the articles here. The 'Sixties' article covers the decline but its all worth a read.

http://www.users.glo...acc/arc0596.htm

[cleanorbust]

Up to the mid/late sixties Villiers engines were the universal power plants for various British trials irons, eg Greeves, James, DMW, DOT, Butler, Cotton, Norman, Sprite and several others. Most of these were really tiny concerns, each with their own individual characteristics, competing in a traditional market place in the UK only; once the Villiers supplies dried up most of them went to the wall.

I wonder if, to some degree, we are seeing the start of a parallel situation with Sherco engines being used in Scorpas as well as by the factory itself?

[sparks2]

Big John, on Jan 5 2010, 09:34 PM, said:

Well in 1968/69 NVT owned the AJS brand and they decided to build their own 2 stroke trials bike the 37A/T and they wanted to use the Villiers exclusively for thier own product. Also AJS made the "Stormer" MX machine with an uprated Starmaker Villiers power plant. I think the NVT company was also part of Manganeze Bronze Holdings. Greeves switched to the Austrian built Puch 6 speed 169cc power-plant for their new Pathfinder, which the factory lads hatee, all except Mick Wilkinson, his brother Bill loathed the Puch engined bike and he shifted to Ossa imported by his long time pal Peter Fletcher.

Rest is history I suppose!

Big John

Hi
BJ is correct, NVT wanted to market their own complete trials bike the AJS 37AT and ceased to supply the other small British manufacturers.
The Villiers engine was already in trouble before this point however, outperformed by the better engineered Bultaco and Montesa products.
The AJS 37AT, though well made and equiped, was a dismal commercial failure, it must have been obvious to the trials buying public that it was not the equal of the Bultaco or Montesa.
A massive own goal for NVT at the time. To be fair though, the Stomer MX machines with the Starmaker engine proved successful and had a long product life.
Faced with no market, their previous customers having adopted foreign engines, Villiers had no alternative but to cease production of the trials engine. I believe part of the Villiers factory at Marston Road, Wolverhampton was cleared and used for the assembly of the then new Norton Commando road bike.
The product life of the remaining active Villiers trials engines was extended via an unlikely source:-
In the early seventies the DMW concern from Dudley, West Midlands was given a government contract for the repair and supply of spares for the similar single cylinder Villiers engine
fitted to the 3 wheel invalid cars, made some time previously by AC Cars, Invacar and others, then still numerous on Britain's roads. DMW was thus a handy source of spares for the remaining
single cylinder Villiers engines and remained so well into the eighties and maybe beyond. I believe the DMW spares stock forms or formed the basis of the stock of the 2 major supplliers of Villiers spares today:- the present NVT company from Manchester and Villiers Services from the West Midlands. Ironically, the supply of spares for the Villiers trials engine is probably better today than it ever was.
In my opinion the weakest point of the Villiers trials engine was it's overcomplicated and difficult to maintain (for the average punter anyway) flywheel magneto,
a design which originated in the 1930's or perhaps even earlier.
Again the the Femsa and Moto-plat magnetos of the Spanish machines were much better.
Don't forget todays pre-65 Villiers engines will, almost universally, be running electronic ignition - a great improvement in reliability and perhaps performance.
I hope this slightly fuller explaination is of interest and helps.
Kind Regards
Sparks2

This post has been edited by sparks2: 07 January 2010 - 10:16 AM

[Hillary]

Just looked at the link to the Villiers document - what a fabulous piece of work. Even though I have limited interest in Villiers, to know that such a document is readily available, must be a godsend to those that do want to know.

[B40RT]

bultaco49, on Jan 5 2010, 10:54 PM, said:

There was a good series of articles about the history of Villiers in the British Two Stroke Club journal some years ago which gives a brief overview of the convoluted decline and disappearance of the Villiers marque. You can find a reprint of the articles here. The 'Sixties' article covers the decline but its all worth a read.

http://www.users.glo...acc/arc0596.htm

Really intersting article.
Whats a "hammertight nut." ?

[jon v8]

Thank you all for your answers,Big John esp - serves me right for not reading the whole book,(Trouble is I read in bed late at night and dont take it all in properly)I looked back at the AJS chapter,I see what you mean.The link to the villiers pages is fascinating,as said its brilliant that someone has gone to the trouble to get it all up on the net.
As for the actual engines,my limited experience of them in my "youth" was that ignition problems aside they were good stuff.But then all the other bikes I had,mainly BSA Bantams,Cubs etc - all had the same problem,rubbish electrics. I wonder how far Villiers would have gone with decent management and perhaps electronic ignition.(The industrial engines were just the same,I still have the same MK10 engine - side valve unit I had when I was 10,a poor spark was its only fault.) If you think about it there would have been a market for some,(Maybe not all) of the smaller bike manufacturers to have pulled throught the seventies if Villiers had carried on making engines for them.The Honda CB125 and its trail brother the SL125 must have been around since about 1972 - didnt BSA carry on the D14/4 Bantam till then ? It does make me wonder what they were thinking of,maybe AJS did want the engine to itself,why not supply the engines under a different name from the failing group,it seems like the bikes stopped getting made because the engines stopped coming - not because the bikes didnt sell.
And were the engines from Spain that much better ? Looking at the quality of the 68/9 247 Mont in bits in my workshop I cant see where the difference is really.Esp when you see how well people like Mick Andrews do with them now - electronic ignition aside !

[bultaco49]

B40RT, on Jan 7 2010, 07:36 PM, said:

Really intersting article.
Whats a "hammertight nut." ?

The nut holding the villiers flywheel to the crankshaft spline was tightened with a Villiers special tool. A ring spanner with a cast head which was bashed with a hammer until (hammertight) nut was tight!

Here is the beast

Attached image(s)

• 

[sparks2]

jon v8, on Jan 7 2010, 07:48 PM, said:

Thank you all for your answers,Big John esp - serves me right for not reading the whole book,(Trouble is I read in bed late at night and dont take it all in properly)I looked back at the AJS chapter,I see what you mean.The link to the villiers pages is fascinating,as said its brilliant that someone has gone to the trouble to get it all up on the net.
As for the actual engines,my limited experience of them in my "youth" was that ignition problems aside they were good stuff.But then all the other bikes I had,mainly BSA Bantams,Cubs etc - all had the same problem,rubbish electrics. I wonder how far Villiers would have gone with decent management and perhaps electronic ignition.(The industrial engines were just the same,I still have the same MK10 engine - side valve unit I had when I was 10,a poor spark was its only fault.) If you think about it there would have been a market for some,(Maybe not all) of the smaller bike manufacturers to have pulled throught the seventies if Villiers had carried on making engines for them.The Honda CB125 and its trail brother the SL125 must have been around since about 1972 - didnt BSA carry on the D14/4 Bantam till then ? It does make me wonder what they were thinking of,maybe AJS did want the engine to itself,why not supply the engines under a different name from the failing group,it seems like the bikes stopped getting made because the engines stopped coming - not because the bikes didnt sell.
And were the engines from Spain that much better ? Looking at the quality of the 68/9 247 Mont in bits in my workshop I cant see where the difference is really.Esp when you see how well people like Mick Andrews do with them now - electronic ignition aside !

Hi Jon

Were the products of Spain that much better?. Well yes, but in my earlier post maybe I should have said better engineered and marketed.
Bultaco had signed up Sammy Miller and Montesa had signed up Gordon Farley. These riders were almost guarenteed to win the important
trials of the day and grab the headlines. Indeed it was a regular joke at the time that Gordon Farley always got his photograph in the comic.
Wins, headlines and photographs spelt new bike sales then and probably now.
Who did NVT sign to ride the new AJS - the Davis brothers - then only for a short time I think.
The AJS also looked positively old fashion when compared to the sleek glassfibre bodywork of the Bultaco and Montesa so any marketing department
would have had it's work cut out. Granted, the good looks were not always or usually matched by durability
but then the new trials buyer is only looking one or two years hence -- not 40. Enough said.
But do not be too hard on NVT, they must have put big money and resources into developing the AJS Stormer MX machines, which did prove to be a success
and budgets only stretch so far.
Kind Regards
Another Old Trials Fanatic
Sparks2

This post has been edited by sparks2: 08 January 2010 - 02:14 PM

[B40RT]

bultaco49, on Jan 7 2010, 10:56 PM, said:

The nut holding the villiers flywheel to the crankshaft spline was tightened with a Villiers special tool. A ring spanner with a cast head which was bashed with a hammer until (hammertight) nut was tight!

Here is the beast

Thanks for the explanation, did it come with a "calibrated" hammer ?

[Woody]

The 250 Villiers engine is a very underrated powerplant in my opinion compared to the Spanish equivalents of the time. It has enough power and torque and just needs a reilable ignition. It works fine on the standard points set up but reliability and consistency can be a problem. I'd say the Spanish engines do feel a bit smoother and more refined in power delivery though.

I've ridden two bikes with standard Villiers 250 fitted (ie; no Honda, Yamaha or GasGas componenets or reed valve) One I used in the Manx Classic 2 day which had Motoplat ignition and a decent exhaust and it had more than enough power for what is quite a challenging classic trial. The other I have ridden several times both on original points and Electrex electronic ignition. Again, more than enough power and torque for the sections I rode it on. Both bikes had the original bob-weight crank. I think more money than is required can be spent on them to get them running well....

[Old trials fanatic]

Tend to agree with Woody as usual. The ignition always let the Villiers unit down but the PVL on mine is totally reiable and transformes the motor. Nothing that Villiers couldnt have sorted if the asset strippers hadnt had their way.

The reason the engine "feels" so "unsophisticated" when compared to the Spanish powerplants is because it's a long stroke unit and would have benifited from being "modernised" by changing the bore and stroke to make it more square or even a little oversquare.

I prefer the motor with the full circle crank to the bob weights but that could just be me.

Finally the other area that really required attention was a gearbox redesign to move the gearbox sprocket to the other side because it's ridiculous having to strip the motor just to change the gearbox sprocket. Then again the Cub, unmodified, was just as bad. Just shows how poor in some areas the British drawing offices were at the time.

Overall though and a lot of results sheets prove this with some updating the Villiers powerplant can hold it's own against the Spanish competition at least.

This post has been edited by Old trials fanatic: 08 January 2010 - 07:49 PM

[sparks2]

Hi
Can't disagree with Woody or OTF
But Villiers would have been waiting a long time for electronic ignition.
Electronic ignition as we know it today ie PVL has only been available comparitively recently.
Regards
Sparks2

This post has been edited by sparks2: 09 January 2010 - 05:11 PM

[Old trials fanatic]

True but the Motorplat system was available early 70's as were systems from Japan and as Boyer had also developed electronic systems then would it really have been beyond them if they had put their mind to it?

Of course we will never know.

Villiers suffered the same fate as the rest of the British motor cycle industry being led by an ostritch and an overdose of apathy.