44 replies to this topic

[chr155_d]

Had an absolutely fantastic weekend up in fort bill, My first experience of a world round!

This comment does not include all observers (I no trials could not go on without them) but unfortunately in some sections I have never seen poorer observation to date,

Even with crowds shouting and pointing out wrong decisions things where going un-noticed (was a bit like germany v england)....

This Did not spoil the action for me at all, We just felt some riders had been cheated out of a fair decision,

I am aware that riders will try and bend the rules, But in all cases there are mitigating circumstances and poor decisions can affect a riders mind set and alters there performance due to frustration, given that these observers dont observe at world level all the time does this create a degree of incompetance?

I like some of the new rules eg the time limit and riders or minders arent allowed in the section, unless permitted?? But should an observer be allowed to shout "OUT, OUT" during a rider riding the section and the rider stop, Put his foot down turn to the observer and say out? How I am still in, observer then says no not you your minder? Who had been given permission to be in the section, Then score the rider for putting His foot down, Going of balance then subsequently fiving the section! three other minders i seen had done exactly the same and not been shouted at!!!!!

Edited by chr155_d, 28 June 2010 - 10:19 PM.

[Big John]

chr155_d, on Jun 28 2010, 11:17 PM, said:

Even with crowds shouting and pointing out wrong decisions things where going un-noticed (was a bit like germany v england)....

It's the observers' job to score the rider, not the crowd!

The observer can only put down what he/she actually sees.

And at the observers briefing, the Clerk of the Course (the boss of the whole trial if you like) stated that if the observer is in doubt the benefit goes to the rider.

Big John

[chr155_d]

Big John, on Jun 28 2010, 11:38 PM, said:

The observer can only put down what he/she actually sees.


Big John

You are totally correct John, the observer can only score what they seen! That is the problem, If the final result of a trial is awarded based purely on what a single observer seen and they have put themselves in a position where they cannot see the riders whole performance or at least see both their feet at all times, what makes them a credible judge of someone's performance? Maybe a review of how a trial is observed is what needs to happen? I'd say trials is a unique form of motorsport in which the riders result could be disputed as it is not awarded based on fastest time etc which couldn't really be contested!

Edited by chr155_d, 28 June 2010 - 11:34 PM.

[JSE]

Big John, on Jun 28 2010, 05:38 PM, said:

It's the observers' job to score the rider, not the crowd!
The observer can only put down what he/she actually sees.
And at the observers briefing, the Clerk of the Course (the boss of the whole trial if you like) stated that if the observer is in doubt the benefit goes to the rider.
Big John

I'm with John on this one, and would guess that unless you've actually checked a section at the World Round level, it's very difficult to understand what they are responsible for and what level of training/background they may have had to deal with those responsibilities.

You have only one perspective (where you are actually standing) and it takes a lot of concentration to do your job. You try to stay in one spot in the section so that if you are missing
a dab in a certain area of the section that is not directly visible, chances you will miss it equally for all the riders as you want to be as fair as possible. You
more than often have to make a subjective decision, did the rider lose a point (that may decide the outcome of this day's event) by gaining support or was the boot just
scraping that rock? You try to be as accurate as possible but you want to balance that with being as fair as possible. Sometimes it feels like you have a bull's eye on your
back as no matter what you call, someone usually is going to be upset with your decision and some of the things the minder's try to get away with will often test your limits
of anger management. The list goes on and on. An observers talent for their job will probably vary more than the talent riders bring to an event and as they are, most likely, volunteers who are doing the best they can (I doubt any of the observers set out to do a bad job) I would offer that maybe some deserve a "little slack" as we say on this side of the pond.

I've been a section observer at three World Rounds, more Nationals than I can count and an untold number of club Trials and in spite of all the hassles and pressures involved in the job, I'd do it again in a heartbeat. It's one of the most rewarding jobs I can think of and an absolute necessity for the sport.

Jon

[sectiononecleaner]

Good points guys and you only have to look at a certain football match the other day and understand sometime the observer/ref gets it wrong lol.

[hrc_monty]

I agree john,

Even observing Centre Trials is nerve racking, as so much relies on your vision and decision. Aslong as the observer marks all riders with the same attitude, then fine.

CHR155_D did your little story actually happen, where an Observer put a rider off, by shouting out to his minder? If so then yeah thats bad form dude, to then mark him for footing!!!!! Personally you let the rider finish the section, especially at that level, as you say the stuff their doing you don't want to be throwing them off. But he should have let them finish section then have a word with the minder and manger, or/and the Clerk of the course.

Edited by hrc_monty, 29 June 2010 - 06:36 AM.

[chewy]

IS this sort of converstion the reason why it is so dificult to get observers?

[Telecat]

Personally I've seen it happen. Riders start with a clear section only for another rider, minder or even spectator to wander into the section or dislodge something into the bike/rider. If it happens I take a view on it. If my, or the "obstruction's" actions cause the rider to drop marks I usually give them the chance to "go again" which is allowable or take the marks if it affects the mark I give them. In many cases they may well be on a "three" anyway so will take it. In others they swing back and try again. As for "not seeing" marks dropped, in many cases where it happensI miss them due to the masses of riders/minders in the way!!

[PHB]

Big John, on Jun 28 2010, 11:38 PM, said:

It's the observers' job to score the rider, not the crowd!

The observer can only put down what he/she actually sees.

And at the observers briefing, the Clerk of the Course (the boss of the whole trial if you like) stated that if the observer is in doubt the benefit goes to the rider.

Big John

like John i was at the observers briefing and actually obsevered on the same section as him on day 1, and quite rightly i had to give a few top riders the benefit of the doudt when my view was obscured by minders in the section, it is very diificult to keep your concentration for 5-6hrs stood in a section watching all the riders go through and also try and keep a eye on there team of helpers (minders, mechanics, team managers, etc ) doing there very best to distract you, and then you have the usuall idiots in the crowd who are shouting crap at you if you miss something,

amazing that they all think that they can do a better job of it, but never offer there services,

all the observers, marshall's, etc all give up there time and for some, considerable expense to help put on the trial for free, because they want to put a little something back into the sport they enjoy

[PHB]

chr155_d, on Jun 28 2010, 11:17 PM, said:

I like some of the new rules eg the time limit and riders or minders arent allowed in the section, unless permitted?? But should an observer be allowed to shout "OUT, OUT" during a rider riding the section and the rider stop, Put his foot down turn to the observer and say out? How I am still in, observer then says no not you your minder? Who had been given permission to be in the section, Then score the rider for putting His foot down, Going of balance then subsequently fiving the section! three other minders i seen had done exactly the same and not been shouted at!!!!!

if the minder hadn't been in the section in the first place (he hadn't been given permission) this incident woudn't have happened, the minder in question was a right pain all day chasing the rider up the sections shouting instructions, the rules are that if the section is deemed that the rider might need the minder to act as a catcher the observer can allow this at his/her discretion, but not for the minder to run through the section, as usual they just take the P!!s

[Slapshot 3]

The observers have the toughest job of anyone at trials because someone is always trying to pull a fast one. They have to be aware of the gardening going on, aware of blatant cheats like Bruno Camozzi, Minders and managers distracting them while the riders do what they like.

The number of times this weekend the observers had to clear minders out of the sections was rediculous, these guys know the rules so they need to be penalised, a few yellow cards would soon keep them out of the sections. The number of them is the real problem, think Raga had 4 around him at one point all causing trouble in the sections.

The observers have a tough job, respect them for the job they did.

[chr155_d]

hrc_monty, on Jun 29 2010, 07:34 AM, said:

I agree john,

Even observing Centre Trials is nerve racking, as so much relies on your vision and decision. Aslong as the observer marks all riders with the same attitude, then fine.

CHR155_D did your little story actually happen, where an Observer put a rider off, by shouting out to his minder? If so then yeah thats bad form dude, to then mark him for footing!!!!! Personally you let the rider finish the section, especially at that level, as you say the stuff their doing you don't want to be throwing them off. But he should have let them finish section then have a word with the minder and manger, or/and the Clerk of the course.

Sure did happen Toni bou section 4, Martin lampkin then stood in the same spot and wasn't shouted at!

[chr155_d]

I 100% respect all observers Marshall's, organisers riders and everyone else involved in organising any trial at any level any where in the world, Just maybe astounded a bit that a world stage level athlete's performance can maybe be incorrectly judged by no fault of the scorer as they didn't see it, it's a bit like two people going to sit an exam knowing all the time and effort you have put in, then the other person comes along cheats and gets a better score than you! Not fair! But hey it happens!

[PHB]

Slapshot 3, on Jun 29 2010, 10:38 AM, said:

The number of times this weekend the observers had to clear minders out of the sections was rediculous, these guys know the rules so they need to be penalised, a few yellow cards would soon keep them out of the sections. The number of them is the real problem, think Raga had 4 around him at one point all causing trouble in the sections.

problem with that, is the rider gets a five he doesn't get to ride the section all because his minder/helpers cheat !!! can you imagine the grief the observers would get from the crowd who had paid good money to see there heroes ride, gas gas and montesa have the same attitude of win at all costs and cheat as much as possible to get there. the amount of helpers etc around there riders is incredible and no matter how much you keep an eye on them they still manage to alter something,

we needed eyes in our backsides and some more else where, to try and stop them!! its impossible we had 4 people on our section (2) on saturday and they still managed to move rocks into the big hole on the large step

[Slapshot 3]

chr155_d, on Jun 29 2010, 10:57 AM, said:

Sure did happen Toni bou section 4, Martin lampkin then stood in the same spot and wasn't shouted at!

The observer gave them the latitude to play catch on the big step Mart then moved away as required, Bou's minder did not. The reason it got heated was the minder getting in the observer's way.