15 replies to this topic

[bdmc]

A road based trial with 20 sections and 2 laps. Each rider has an individual start time. All the riders started at the correct time. After the 2nd lap has started 3 riders (riding together) get pulled by the police. He informs the competitors that until he has checked all the bikes they cannot leave the scene. All the bikes are checked and nothing is found to stop them continuing. The police allow the bikes to continue.

When the riders arrive at the time control they have incurred time penalties: Rider A 19mins, Rider B 21mins and Rider C 23 mins. They inform the time controller that they had been stopped by the police for approx. 20 mins, The time control allows them to ride the last section. The clerk of course is informed of the time controller’s decision.

The police arrive at the finish and ask to see the documentation for the event. This is sorted out by the secretary, who also asks if the police had stopped riders A,B and C. The police confirmed this but did not remember the exact time the riders were held up but it was about 20mins

The results are added up and on observation alone the 3 riders finish 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

Rider A had dropped 10 marks on observation

Rider B had dropped 20 marks on observation.

Rider C had dropped 5 marks on observation.

How would you sort out the time penalties?

[jam]

Could you scap the time altogether?

[TrialsUK]

bdmc, on 07 December 2010 - 09:36 PM, said:

A road based trial with 20 sections and 2 laps. Each rider has an individual start time. All the riders started at the correct time. After the 2nd lap has started 3 riders (riding together) get pulled by the police. He informs the competitors that until he has checked all the bikes they cannot leave the scene. All the bikes are checked and nothing is found to stop them continuing. The police allow the bikes to continue.

When the riders arrive at the time control they have incurred time penalties: Rider A 19mins, Rider B 21mins and Rider C 23 mins. They inform the time controller that they had been stopped by the police for approx. 20 mins, The time control allows them to ride the last section. The clerk of course is informed of the time controller’s decision.

The police arrive at the finish and ask to see the documentation for the event. This is sorted out by the secretary, who also asks if the police had stopped riders A,B and C. The police confirmed this but did not remember the exact time the riders were held up but it was about 20mins

The results are added up and on observation alone the 3 riders finish 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

Rider A had dropped 10 marks on observation

Rider B had dropped 20 marks on observation.

Rider C had dropped 5 marks on observation.

How would you sort out the time penalties?

Think you may need some clarification from the ACU on that as its an unusual situation thats not covered in the handbook.
I do not envy the flak thats coming your way from the other riders over this. And i'm amazed at the fact that 3 riders were stopped and all 3 were legal and not using their van tax/reg etc

[bilc0]

bdmc, on 07 December 2010 - 09:36 PM, said:

also asks if the police had stopped riders A,B and C. The police confirmed this but did not remember the exact time the riders were held up but it was about 20mins

Mint.
I bet the Rozzers that stopped the 3 did'nt think they would have to give evidence at the end of the Trial.

[stevel]

This may appear harsh; but why should these riders receive exemption from the time limit just because they were stopped by the police?

Surely its just bad luck for these riders, just as having a puncture?

Once you start judging what is acceptable for exemption and what is not; then you are on the start of a slippery slope & a potential nightmare for officials

[Pete_Scorpa3]

Being stopped by the Police, which the Police themselves confirmed as an acceptable excuse in my opinion. Punctures and other machine failures, or simply getting lost is part of the event. Police intervention is not.
Credit them the 23 minutes.

[GII]

I'm not a clerk of the course, so I can't directly answer the question.

However, some points.

• I believe that under certain circumstances disobeying a traffic officer can be an offence, so I can understand the riders waiting until the police officers had finished with them.
  
• I don't believe that Police Officers have a right to waste your time, whatever they say.
  
• I believe that when a police officer states that he wishes to inspect your vehicle, you can state that now is not convenient and you will present your vehicle for inspection at a reasonable time in the future, eg tomorrow, or in 5 days time. Since no competing trials bike will pass inspection (European law defines a flat tyre as less than 10psi) remember this
  
• Trouble is it's really difficult to guarantee even brand a new trials bike will an pass MOT inspection when presented to a police MOT Inspe

ctor but think you can you can nominate your own reasonable (eg. council transportation dept) inspector.

• As a trials rider, I'd expect the clerk of the course to drop the time penalties
  
• This is just my opinion - when I observe I mark as I'd hope to be marked as a rider

This would be a great time for the metropolitan police 'motor club' to step up to the plate.

When I was involved in international rowing, 'the mets' had a rowing club and were very helpful in 'clarifying' the legal situation as to towing 65 foot boats behind cars / vans, I carried a laminated print of their 'clarification' in the car for years. I was pulled several times, but production of the laminated explanation always resulted in an instant reduction of interest from the involved officers.

Edited by GII, 07 December 2010 - 10:54 PM.

[totalshell]

i have seen this happen at an event and it involved one bike ironically on a two lap road based event. the CoC's exacts word were 'tough'! he argued that the timw allowanve was generous and everyone else had completed the course with plenty of time to spare.

[Dan Williams]

Several issues, if the cops stopped them for an offense then the penalty should stick. Since they apparently weren't cited and the cops came to hassle the event organizers it would appear somebody was just putting the screws to the event and I'd have to waive the time penalty for those riders. It's a tricky situation as the cops may have stopped them for being faster on the road as top riders tend to be or just the first three that that came to where the cops were. In either case if they were not breaking the law then it was a situation out of the rider's control (and up to the club to have cleared up with the local police before the event to be blunt) and the penalty should be waived similar to a reride. It sounds like it occurred at the end of the day nullifying the argument that the riders should have finished because all the others did. Smart riders will take the extra time and will usually finish close to the end time as a strategy. In that case the argument is moot.

[max1956bikes]

blimey.i would not want to decide on this one.you cannot win,either way.

[John Collins]

Rider A finishes on 29

Ridere B & C are disqualified.

The fact that the police stopped them is not actually that different than if they had a puncture and could not fix it in reasonable time, or if something else happened to delay them.

One could argue that if the whole entry had some sort of delay eg a farmer denied access across his land and this made everyone take a 10 mile detour - this could be regarded as Force Majeure - and then the Clerk of Course may have to look at things ( amount of time this 10 mile detour should take etc) but three riders being stopped by the police I do not think can fall into this category

Tongue in cheek - If you are going on holiday - and flying from Gatwick - and get stuck on M25 - or police pull you in for check and you arriuve at RyanAir desk 5 mins after it closes - will they refund your money?

[chr155_d]

I would not even be considering whether or not to impose these time penalties!

Think what you would expect to happen if it was you in that position!?

They're observation scores should be irrelevent as it could have happened to any rider out there!!

For the reputation of the event and future fairness i would deem that as mitigating circumstances and waiver those time penalties!

The police backed up the fact they had stopped them so no cheating was taking place!

I imagine in future it would maybe be a better idea to invite the police along to the start of the event and invite them to inspect any vehicles, before the event commences! (obviously an ideal world scenario) But look at the ssdt where the authorities are aware of how well the machines are scrutinised! and they dont go around doing routine stops! just if your committing an offence!

[Pete_Scorpa3]

John Collins, on 08 December 2010 - 09:28 AM, said:

Rider A finishes on 29

Ridere B & C are disqualified.

The fact that the police stopped them is not actually that different than if they had a puncture and could not fix it in reasonable time, or if something else happened to delay them.

One could argue that if the whole entry had some sort of delay eg a farmer denied access across his land and this made everyone take a 10 mile detour - this could be regarded as Force Majeure - and then the Clerk of Course may have to look at things ( amount of time this 10 mile detour should take etc) but three riders being stopped by the police I do not think can fall into this category

Tongue in cheek - If you are going on holiday - and flying from Gatwick - and get stuck on M25 - or police pull you in for check and you arriuve at RyanAir desk 5 mins after it closes - will they refund your money?

John,
For once I don't agree with you on this one. Three riders out of the entry being stopped by the Police does I feel give them a genuine reason for exceeding their time limit. What would have happened if the Police delayed every rider in the trial by 23 minutes?
I feel that it is wrong to penalise the three who were stopped, especially as the Police themselves confirmed that fact.
The riders could hardly have continued until allowed by the Police.
Pete

[jimmyl]

2 of the riders would of had time penalties without being stopped so suggest they where running close to time limit anyway (possibly why they where stopped???).
As JC says its down to the rider to manage their own time and allow for contingency (be it puncture, traffic jam, or police intervention).
Nothing wrong with informing the Police of the event which I belive is normally done as a matter of course but inviting Police in at the start is like inviting the fox in to the hen house.
Even if bikes are taxed most insurance excludes trials, all No plates are illegal let alone horns, speedo, tyre pressures etc

[John Collins]

Ah - now we are talking about some different things - all everyone states about it would have been better for police to do this or that is perfectly true - BUT , that is not the issue - the fact is that the police did what they did - you cannot alter that
The argument seems to be that this was out of riders control ie they could not be expected to know they were stopped by police? One could argue that - a rider could invite a stop - ( as someone did some years ago by apparently wheeling up a pavement) - or perhaps less dramatic, by having a poor rear number plate and so on - we do not know the circumstance why the police felt the need to stop them , all we know is that they did.

Now - if you are taking the view that if a rider gets "delayed" for reasons outside what you consider their control , it is very difficult to make a distinction between different things. While we are talking about 20 min’s here – which does seem excessive, logically the same can apply to any act which causes a delay , and a rider who is going to be perhaps 15 min’s late – would also be disqualified if say he was delayed 6 min’s ?

So – what if at a railway crossing – rider No 45 and 46 went through just as the barrier was coming down – but mates – ( who had been riding with them all day) No 47 & 48 were stuck on other side – and train took 6 min’s to pass – would you take their time off?. How could they be expected to have known about this?

What about riders finishing a few minutes after their 20 min late allowance – who claimed that a farmer had held them up in a lane when he moved his hundred cows along the lane SLOWLY for milking?

Years ago – in National - there was little doubt that some people in a village deliberately altered the markers after about 75% had gone through and sent the remainder the wrong way round – making them over 20 min’s late - the Clerk of Course – accepted that this being Force Majeure ( the unexpected) - scrapped the time limit.

I can assure you that the Protests arrived – and subsequently an Appeal – by the riders who had not been affected by the moved markers – the gist of it was “ We have rushed on all day – we barely looked at last group of sections – which of course we would definitely have cleaned if we had! – what should we now be disadvantaged” - and so on

It is difficult in the extreme for a Clerk of Course to make these decisions . The question is asked what if the whole entry had been stopped ? Well then again the Force Majeure rule would apply – and the Clerk of Course could consider that this was so unexpected that he would take action.

All please remember – that a time limit is a time limit – and it could be argued that the 20 min limit is designed to cater for these sorts of things – over time limit results in a point penalty – and it is only after this 20 min that a rider gets disqualified – so in theory if you are running on time (and the time limit has been sensibly calculated) a point penalty should cover most if not all delays?

It is perhaps easy in the pub afterwards, or as we are doing now to debate at home – but the Clerk of the Course does not have that privilege. Someone asked what if the whole entry had been stopped – and someone else asked how would I feel if it had been me etc - Well all I can say – is probably as aggrieved as the riders who would be disqualified – but there you go

I did ride in an event some years ago ( although it was an Enduro) where the police did stop the vast majority of riders to check legality etc – fortunately I just scraped in on time after this – my mate riding behind me did not and dropped a few minutes – there was nothing he or others could do – the argument was that he should not have been that tight on time in any case.

Equally many years ago I was excluded from a British Championship Trials round for being about 24 min’s late – so I do sympathise – the fact that my bike had been seen outside a pub at lunch time cut very little ice with the organisers on my subsequent arguments – and I remained excluded!

One could actually argue – that if the time for an event is more or less correct – a 20 min delay should still enable riders – who have been circulating at normal expected speed – to be able to carry this – with possible mark loss – but still get in within 20 min allowance.

Finally – the crux remains – are you able to make the distinction between the reason for delays? Many believe that the Police stopping a rider is a valid excuse - I maintain there are probably many more – and I therefore stick to my original theory Rider A 29mins – Rider B & C disqualified. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!