28 replies to this topic

[Pete_Scorpa3]

It has been bought up in another thread that some of the observing at the recent Stratford-Upon-Avon clubs Colmore cup was questionable.
Comments have been made following a short video clip taken at the last section of the day where a rider, may have stopped briefly but was still only given a one for dabbing.
With the benefit of video footage to watch over and over again, it does appear to be a pause but should it have been a five?

Here's another to take a look at. Looking at the video carefully, does Sam stop at section one?



The clubmans series went to non stop TSR22b last year and as an organiser I prefer it.

For comparison, here's a clip taken in 2009 when stopping was allowed.



Feel free to comment, especially if you rode, we would like to hear all points of view concerning this and any other issues from the Colmore.

This is in no way a crisisism of the 80 observers and punchers, they were all stars on the day!

Pete

Edited by Pete_Scorpa3, 01 March 2011 - 08:44 AM.

[jimmyl]

Having sprogged round on the clubman route thought trial was superb especially in the weather.
Stop allowed, no stop alowed there will always be some grey areas or judgment required. So long as consistancy is maintained through out the day we know where we stand.
Section 5 had a tight turn before the end - probaly not rideable with out hopping/ flicking and an aoccasional balance - observer told rider he was being strict so we knew where we stood and a big dab was in order for us lesser lights.
I think so long as the spirit of no stop is adhered to then a feet up hop or moment pasue is acceptable.

[Woody]

Video 1, Sam Connor, a definite stop. The stop is used to reposition the back wheel. Foward motion has ceased under the control of the rider to move the back wheel in order to reposition the bike to get a better line than you could riding it non stop, possiby saving a dab on the turn. It's a 5 for stopping.

Video 2 suitably demonstrates what a boring pain in the a*** stop allowed can be, especially if you're in the queue of riders on a tight time limit waiting for your go.

In the other video of Maria Conway, it is a 5 as a result of a mistake. The rider has lost momentary control and slammed into the opposite bank and stopped. 5 marks. Harsh maybe but that's the no stop rule, you pay more for mistakes. If a tennis player twitches slightly when playing a shot which results in the ball going 1mm over the line instead of in, they pay for the mistake. Why is trials viewed differently by some people.

In the video of Emma Bristow on the same section as Sam, it's very close to a stop as well.

[totalshell]

as a rider and observer i take the chance to read the rules before 'big' no stop trials so that i make informed correct descions ( a bit pedantic i know) tsr22b is clear
Failure: A failure is considered to have occurred if: –
a) Solo
(i) Th e machine ceases to move in a forward direction.

wheter your spinning the rear wheel up a climb but have stopped moving forward or stopped the front wheel turning to lift the rear wheel then it seems that both are filures (fives) if you hit a bank at right angles and have to lift the front of the bike with one or more feet on the ground or you roll up to a slippy log plant your foot and lift the front end over the log if the bike stops moving forward ie the front wheel ceases to progress then its a five

perhaps organisers should do more to clarify with riders/ observers to ensure a fair ride for all what tsr22 b actually means rather than quote a sub paragraph from a book over 520 pages long

[Thedbf]

Quote

Is a pause a stop?

Yer having a tin bath aren't ye

[spudsdad]

re; alex wigg stopping allowed video, what was that 5 or clean ? thought it was 5 for rolling back

Edited by spudsdad, 01 March 2011 - 02:50 PM.

[spudsdad]

"It has been bought up in another thread that some of the observing at the recent Stratford-Upon-Avon clubs Colmore cup was questionable"
pete regarding your quote above , i dont think that any one is or was questioning the observing at sundays colmore ,its just that no stop rules seem to be open to many variables and opinions as to did or didnt they stop/ pause

Edited by spudsdad, 01 March 2011 - 03:13 PM.

[Woody]

spudsdad, on 01 March 2011 - 03:12 PM, said:

"It has been bought up in another thread that some of the observing at the recent Stratford-Upon-Avon clubs Colmore cup was questionable"
pete regarding your quote above , i dont think that any one is or was questioning the observing at sundays colmore ,its just that no stop rules seem to be open to many variables and opinions as to did or didnt they stop/ pause

It's more symtomatic of modern trials rather than how no stop used to be years ago. There was no trick riding then so issues like Sam's ride didn't arise. Listen to the applause from people watching when he rides the section. They all think it merits a clean but really it is a 5 as it's against the rules to gain advantage. Imagine though, what may have happened had the observer given 5 to the knowledge of rider and spectators in a situation like that. Some riders (and spectators/minders) could react very badly, the observer can take the easy way out (which is understandable in not wanting a confrontation) The rider in instances like this probably feels they kept on the move. The bike itself may be moving, but not forwards. The perception from on the bike is different from those watching in respect of what is actually happening.

This happens in almost all modern no-stop trials I've ridden in, so there is no question of singling out observing decisions at the Colmore

Edited by Woody, 01 March 2011 - 03:43 PM.

[emmo1]

I well remember Brenda Jones in the Yorkshire Centre being mad keen and would have you for a 5 if you looked like stopping.

Harry Wright on the other hand was the most generous observer around, (apart from a p***ed up Frenchman I came across in the Gueret 4 day who made you ride the section again if he thought you hadn't given it your best shot!) he never fived anyone unless he really had too.

What Brenda and Harry had in common was their consistency - you knew where you stood with both.

Different observing standards even themselves out - did you ever see a trial won by someone who was not the best rider on the day??

[Blocky]

Looking at the video its a 5 but i'd have probably have given a clean on the day. So easy to miss when your having to walk about to be able to see the whole section.

[The Addict]

I saw alot of stops on the day, mainly the better lads and they got away with it, lower down the field they did'nt but I have to say Dan Thorpe is the master of non stop even on the above mentioned section 5. The main reason I did'nt observe this year is down to the rules, would I have given Sam a 5?............nope, I dont want the hassle of confrontation but I would have let all the others do the same if the time stopped was only very brief. As I have said before, as long as the CoC set trials out as non stop but the rules allow stopping all will be well, the problems happen when a trial is set out with stop allowed in mind ans sections can only be ridden non stop.
Great day and huge credit again to the Stratford Team for organizing such an event, difficult conditions as ever in February changing by the hours the week before and on the day, looking at the scores the club got things right again
Good to catch up with Pete and club after quite a few months and finally meet Jimmyl

Edited by The Addict, 01 March 2011 - 06:34 PM.

[B40RT]

The Addict, on 01 March 2011 - 06:31 PM, said:

As I have said before, as long as the CoC set trials out as non stop but the rules allow stopping all will be well, the problems happen when a trial is set out with stop allowed in mind ans sections can only be ridden non stop.

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[spudsdad]

B40RT, on 01 March 2011 - 06:37 PM, said:

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b40rt i agree with you ,this no stop stuffs confusing

[The Addict]

B40RT, on 01 March 2011 - 06:37 PM, said:

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did'nt read to good to me either mate sorry, I'll try again, If the Colmore was set out exactly the same as Sunday under the stop allowed rules the odd stop here and there wouldn't have mattered, the problems with stop allowed events are they set out so stopping is a necessity like the section in video two.
I saw a fair few sections on Sunday, pretty much all of them wouldn't have benefited from stopping for any length of time at all so I expect the scores would have been pretty much the same

Edited by The Addict, 01 March 2011 - 08:32 PM.

[Pete_Scorpa3]

Here's another to look at.

The last turn had an easy approach (to the riders right hand side) that set them up for the exit. However, as the day went on the line deteriorated badly, getting on line became much harder and riders started dropping straight down into the stream making the exit really tight.