19 replies to this topic

[thespikeyone]

Having recently moved from england to scotland I was just wondering why there is such a big difference between the ACU/SACU trials registration? Is it due to numbers?? as there is obviously more clubs/riders to spread the cost south of the border or is it land policy? or something else?

I must add I don't mind in the slightest paying the fee as it works out at less than a meesley £1 a week.

Also how do the enduro guys manage to charge £40 for an event when us trials guys manage it for £10???? again I really appreciate all the work everyone puts in to all these events im just curious (not in a gay way).

Cheers

Spike

Edited by thespikeyone, 14 March 2011 - 10:28 AM.

[dombush]

Spike

i can only speak for the trials / enduro clubs i've been a member of.

• Enduro is faster and typically has injuries, my club had 2 ambulances
  
• Insurance risk is higher as a result
  
• Laps are generally much longer (whilst at racing speeds)
  
• Level of damage to the land in winter is higher, meaning landowners tend to want paying, or repair work has to take place
  
• Noisier, meaning landowners have to worry about complaints / environmental inspection.
  
• Expensive timing kit is needed, more tape, stakes etc....for ??miles of track

reasonably straightforward really

Edited by dombush, 12 March 2011 - 07:31 AM.

[Pete_Scorpa3]

I'm fairly sure the cost of actually running different disciplines has little of no relationship to the cost of the registration. We are lucky to only pay £10 for a trials registration, I suspect that it does not cover the cost of issuing it.

Back in the 90's the ACU had a system where riders paid a small amount at each trial they entered. Great if you only do three trials a year, not so good if you do 40.

If I remember correctly, the reason this was dropped in favour of a registration, is for insurance/liability purposes. When we sign on at each event, we agree to abide by the rules of the ACU that we have read and understand them. In the case of any legal claim being made against the organisers, under the old 'pay-as-you-go' system a rider could argue that they had not been given the chance to read the rules and therefore it was not reasonable for them to follow those rules.

To cover this, every rider has to be given a handbook including the sporting code which states exactly what is expected of them, regulations, offences, fines and their right to appeal etc. This alone must soak up more than £10 a year per rider.

Now I'm only guessing here, but if it costs more than £10 to issue a trials registration, that means that other disciplines like enduro, are subsidising trials. The ACU may have a different ratio of licences to other federations hence the difference in cost.

Pete

[ormplus]

sacu license £43 acu £10+£1 is added to every entry.as you said more members in england means more income.our entrys are usually cheaper than england as well.sacu made a loss in 2010 of £29,000 which dosnt help either.why enduros are dear is higher insurance+they have to pay the forestry which is quite dear.trials are still the cheapest form of motorsport.think i got this right but some one will differ.

[bilc0]

thespikeyone, on 11 March 2011 - 11:05 PM, said:

Also how do the enduro guys manage to charge £40 for an event when us trials guys manage it for £10???? again

Someones already answered this question but i thought i'd add that i would happily pay £40 for a Trial event if it means we get bigger laps,trial land seems to be shrinking by the year,in the end we will lose alot of land,due to trialers not wanting to pay for the land.

[craig10]

Bit off topic here, but at £43 for an SACU trials licence even if you just want to ride one national, where's the attraction for occasional riders such as myself?

Maybes if the licence was a bit cheaper more of us would get one instead of just going to AMCA events.

Not getting on at anyone, just my tuppence worth...

Edited by craig10, 12 March 2011 - 09:33 AM.

[Old trials fanatic]

craig10, on 12 March 2011 - 09:31 AM, said:

Bit off topic here, but at £43 for an SACU trials licence even if you just want to ride one national, where's the attraction for occasional riders such as myself?

Maybes if the licence was a bit cheaper more of us would get one instead of just going to AMCA events.

Not getting on at anyone, just my tuppence worth...

AMCA have licences too however for some strange reason you dont seem to need one ??

£43 does seem a bit steep. Then again £10 i'm sure doesnt cover costs. Perhaps somewhere in the middle?

Just think yourself lucky you dont live in Spain

[pumpkin trials]

Great debate has progressed here but you should all be aware of the fact that here in Northern Ireland a licence is £50 going to rise to £70 for next season.
If we dont take a licence it costs £10 for a day licence and the cost of an entry floats around the £20 mark.
We also pay levy to Forestry commission at times but I would add that I am happy to pay a bit extra for a cracking venue rather than ride the same land over and over and over.

[gjbiker]

Hi Spike,
I think you answered your own question - you moved from England to Scotland ! Everything seems more expensive North of the border and it gets worse the further North you go. Do we care? Not one bit! There's no price to paradise
As for the cost of a licence, how much is a game of golf or a ticket to the footie (personally don't know and don't want to know), track day on a sports bike, 5k for a mountain bike etc, etc? All hobbies, sports, pastimes (call it what you want) carry a price and in the great scheme of things trials is still relatively cheap regardless of the 30 quid difference between Norf and Saf?

GJ

[chewy]

I havn't the details but England (ACU reg) is a registration fee and pay as you go whereas Scotland SACU is pay up front just for interest France FFM licence last year wes 220 euros. I know its up to us consumers to keep on moaning but when you compare insurance cost to a new pair of riding trousers advertising somebody elses stuff there's no comparison.

[Old trials fanatic]

gjbiker, on 12 March 2011 - 01:10 PM, said:

Hi Spike,
I think you answered your own question - you moved from England to Scotland ! Everything seems more expensive North of the border and it gets worse the further North you go. Do we care? Not one bit! There's no price to paradise
As for the cost of a licence, how much is a game of golf or a ticket to the footie (personally don't know and don't want to know), track day on a sports bike, 5k for a mountain bike etc, etc? All hobbies, sports, pastimes (call it what you want) carry a price and in the great scheme of things trials is still relatively cheap regardless of the 30 quid difference between Norf and Saf?

GJ

So why doesnt the same apply to Cornwall? Not knocking as the countryside you get to ride in is sooooooooooooo much better than us but dont get why it should be so much more expensive unless it is because the other disciplines in England do subsidise trials and because we have more road race and moto cross circuits etc than scotland, think there's just Knockhill , thats why?

One other question why do you have a SACU ? why arent you just in the ACU like everybody else? Just wondered. We are all one disunited Kingdom after all.

Edited by Old trials fanatic, 12 March 2011 - 09:59 PM.

[bigfoot]

The SACU is the ACU. Scotland is just a ACU centre.

Why it has a different name, offices, fee system and the likes i don't know. I'm going to make myself unpopular here but I do question what membership of the SACU/ACU actually bring me other than hastle and cost. I've not known any one claim the insurance it provides and maybe it's great but knowing insurance companies it'll be nothing special. As it happened I have Personal cover that would support me so it's only 3rd party cover that's being added by the organisation. I could find public liability insurance for my local club members at less than £43 pa.

So there you go. I grudge it and I'm sure it helps explain why a AMCA nearby get entries regularly twice or more what we do. We've got more venues, bigger venues and similar entry fees.

[Slapshot 3]

Interesting.....I think there have been some within the SACU looking at different ideas BUT you have a group of people on the management committee who only see that bottom line of numbers at the end of the year and who refuse to change because they are old and set in their ways. I grew up listening to some on them the current President included, bring in money to clubs and association but don't use it to invest in our sport. Do we really need a full-time, fully staffed office?? Why should the SACU have a decent bank balance when our sports are struggling, doesn't that money belong to the riders who take their licences every year because I don't see where else they bring the cash in.

I'm a very occasional rider and the fact that a licence is £43 really makes me think whether to take one or not especially if I only manage one or two trials a year. It's expensive but not as bad as the daylight robbery that was the day licence at £20 a throw. I've heard all the reasons why but doesn't mean we can think about it.

Making the sport easier to get into is not helped by an expensive licence, you buy a bike and all the gear, you have your transport sorted out then you join a club then get whacked for another £43 quid for a licence, nice one!!

If all I had to pay at the start of the year was a £15-£20 registration then pay an additional couple of quid on insurance per event that would be more sensible from my perspective. I want to get out more but right now I don't see the value in taking a licence so I don't bother......sad isn't it.

[Big John]

I think this matter has been discussed on here previously, but here goes..again!

Yes, the ACU charge £10 for a registration card and it is purely for identification purposes. The cost of administering it probably outweighs the income it generates, but it works well for the riders and the ACU who collect their money via the rider's levy portion of every entry fee from every event. There are many times more trials riders in ACU land than in Scotland...fact!

The SACU did look at an alternative, which would have been a £20 Registration Card fee plus around £3.50 rider's levy at each event whether that be national or closed to club. Based on 2009 entry levels, trials would have contributed £5,000 less per year to the SACU funds. The trials committee put forward the proposal to SACU management and it was outvoted - democratically I may add. Primarily, because the other disciplines thought that they would be carrying a deficit for their trials counterparts, but also because SACU officials did a straw poll at the Bob MacGregor Trials Academy and most riders on that day stated they preferred to pay an up front £43 licence fee, rather that (perhaps) pay more if they rode regularly. It was simply outvoted.

I personally don't have any preference as trials is still the cheapest form of motorsport, yes look at Spain and France their governing bodies do charge way much more to their competitors.

As for not having paid staff to administer the sport, it is highly unlikely to get sufficient volunteers to do what the SACU staff currently do for no payment! Fact of life, it is a full time job keeping a sport active at governing body level, whether that be bike sport or athletics etc.
With regard to entries at AMCA events in Scotland, it hasn't so much to do with cost it is more to do with the standard/level of events. They are laid out to take few marks and this has appealled to the mass market, which is to be applauded.
Some SACU clubs need to consider this...what do the majority of their riders want? A hard event that they get 5 after 5 in the sections, sections that appeal to the top class rider or an event that takes few marks and riders enjoy?

Hope this clarifies some points.

Big John

Edited by Big John, 20 March 2011 - 05:42 PM.

[Big John]

bigfoot, on 13 March 2011 - 07:40 AM, said:

The SACU is the ACU. Scotland is just a ACU centre.

Actually Bigfoot, Scotland is classed as a "Region" of the ACU, it is not classified as a "centre".

The Scottish ACU has an agreement with the ACU in that the SACU recognises the ACU as the controlling body of the sport of motorcycling throughout Britain and the ACU recognise the SACU as the controlling body, on their behalf, in Scotland.

Big John