28 replies to this topic

[GIZZA5]

totalshell, on 19 May 2011 - 01:36 PM, said:

then all you have to di is flash your photo registration card and club membership when signing on and bingo..

But it never happens, but that is a whole different debate?

Yes agree with the ACU for moving forward and adopting the on line registration and hopefully you will get more people sign up, but it still begs the question at a trial what is the percentage of people that are in possesion of tha ACU licence until as stated a rider or spectator get injured and a claim goes in?

Are the ACU going to ask the volunteer secretery if he or she checked each individual licence and hold them responsible? Won't me many volunteers for that job, it would be easier finding observers and we all know how hard that is??

Edited by GIZZA5, 19 May 2011 - 05:15 PM.

[Big John]

There is no way the ACU would effectively issue a licence without some sort of club validation. I know the SACU are actively looking at a similar project for Scotland via their own policy and planning committee known as "Way Forward" committee. The clubs are the lifeblood of both the ACU and SACU, they should not be left out of any loop.

Big John

[totalshell]

okay if club membership has to be an essential for an acu reg card why dont the acu require all membership be the same cost you pays for your licence online nominate a club and the acu gives them the money.. and your details electronically is that too simple.. no nominated club no registration card

[Pete_Scorpa3]

totalshell, on 19 May 2011 - 06:13 PM, said:

okay if club membership has to be an essential for an acu reg card why dont the acu require all membership be the same cost you pays for your licence online nominate a club and the acu gives them the money.. and your details electronically is that too simple.. no nominated club no registration card

Now there's a new take on the problem!

There is only one draw-back to this as I see it, and call me a cynic but...

Much (if not all) of this proposal is about reducing costs. Most of us are doing it, some of us have even lost our jobs because of it.
I can't blame the ACU for wanting to make applications easier and quicker, it saves on admin time.... thus reducing costs.
Cutting out the clubs completely would help the ACU to do this; no admin costs associated with the club at all, but at what cost to the clubs themselves?

Do you think the ACU care if a club looses out on a few membership fee's due to this?
If they can save a thousand pounds a year whilst the odd club run by unpaid enthusiasts looses a few hundred pounds of their own money. Will the accountants care about the clubs? Not a jot!

How much would it cost to administer a system where the ACU pays the club for each rider? Sadly more than it saves I guess, and who would have to make up for that? Yes, the licence applicant. £5 to the club plus a £? admin fee.

Surely there is a system where the club verifies each application before the licence is issued?

[hrc1]

I'm not sure it would make any difference.
Locally clubs here give discount on entry fees to members......if you ride a lot it's cheaper to join.
If it's your local club you'll join anyway.
Bigger events, groups, centre, national etc charge more anyway.

Of course a few of us here are AMCA clubs running quite happily with no licence required at all.......now there's an idea.

[John Collins]

Some good points – some not so good?

First – this is not aimed primarily at saving the ACU money – I cannot actually see how many of the options would do that – although nice of course if it could. I also have to say that after spending a whole day working in the licence department a few months ago, it was an eye opener to see the applications that come in. Certainly some I dealt with in the one day, had no Club signature or stamp, Clubs that we had never heard of and so on. Sending them all back takes time of course ( and also postage) – so somehow in this day and age there must be an easier electronic alternative?

Secondly – total nonsense to think that the ACU ( that is all of us by the way not just those who go to Rugby) do not care about income to Club and so on. Directors/C/tee members and so on are all Club members as well ( they have to be) and I can assure you that most of us who hold some sort of position are still very active within our Clubs – I certainly know I attend mine every week when I am home, I still act as Clerk of Course several times a year and observe and ride in my Clubs events. This applies to most – so I 100% guarantee that Clubs are not being neglected or not thought of – but as I have already stated it is time to move on – and make it easier to participate in our sport without having to jump through too many hoops.

I have already explained that some applications arrived many many weeks after the rider joined the club and gave his form to Club sec for posting etc

I would also point out to those who have posed question about actually flashing your card etc – that all riders complete an entry form which requires you to put down your Licence/Registration number. Checks are carried out on these forms on a random basis, and we try to do it without giving the event Sec more work – but just by asking them or Centre Sec to send in the entry forms now and then

If a rider has not filled in the Licence/Registration number – or filled in an old one, or a false one – then sorry lads – down to you , you have signed that declaration, – no more red herrings about “ I never have to produce my card etc”

Society has changed, and while thankfully many still attend and get involved in club life – I am afraid many do not – fact.
So the crux of matter is to try to retain the link to the club- so they still have contact and income – but make it easier for the rider. This debate is being stiffled a bit by some looking – as always for ulterior motives , or using a problem raise old chestnuts such as why do we need registration in first place and so on . Different topics which have all been dealt with before, and can be again of course, but at present only cause confusion.

Totalshell actually arrived at one of our first thoughts on the matter, and probably the best and most simplest

i.e. (a) Potential applicant clicks on drop down menu – selects his’her Club – and ticks and fills in rest

( ACU office send out on regular basis- Payment to Club and members details for future contact and so on- - simples

Problems: Club membership fee’s vary - I personally think for Trials clubs it is not that great a variance, so could be solved? But for MX , and Enduro and Track racing there is a larger variation which makes things more difficult .

Also – and I know this should not be the case – but it is – purely from an ACU perspective – if for example Club membership was £10 – and we added that onto say a £43 Enduro licence which I pay – I would this year have sent £53. - In reality I would have actually paid no more than last year ie Club £10, Enduro licence £43 - but I wonder how many would say think - them bxxxxxds up at ACU have taken £53 off me this time?

You may have a view on this – but unfortuanatly I know it to be true from bitter experience.

Someone somewhere will probably come up with an excellent idea, and that will be far more beneficial than just identifying reasons not do it

[Big John]

Worthy point, not all ideas are about saving money, but actually making things easier with people who have access to computers. (Which by the way the reader of this message must either own one or have access to one!)
Take for instance the road fund licence, I find it a whole lot easier to apply for my road tax on-line without having to drive to the local post office (or walk on a hissing wet day) fumble about with cash or cheque, find that I have forgotten my MOT certificate and Insurance certificate, oh dear another trip! On-line, put in the reminder ID number, follow the on screen instruction, pay by credit/debit card and Bob's your uncle the round bit of paper arrives by post in two or three days, job done at the click of a mouse!

Same idea with on-line licence/registration card, sound slike a good idea in principle, bring it on!

Big John

[Pete_Scorpa3]

Big John, on 26 May 2011 - 05:07 PM, said:

Worthy point, not all ideas are about saving money, but actually making things easier with people who have access to computers. (Which by the way the reader of this message must either own one or have access to one!)
Take for instance the road fund licence, I find it a whole lot easier to apply for my road tax on-line without having to drive to the local post office (or walk on a hissing wet day) fumble about with cash or cheque, find that I have forgotten my MOT certificate and Insurance certificate, oh dear another trip! On-line, put in the reminder ID number, follow the on screen instruction, pay by credit/debit card and Bob's your uncle the round bit of paper arrives by post in two or three days, job done at the click of a mouse!

Same idea with on-line licence/registration card, sound slike a good idea in principle, bring it on!

Big John

With you on that one Big John!
But lets not forget, the online tax disc application only works if you are insured and your vehicle is mot'd.
Apply the same analogy to trials registrations, then each application should automatically check that the applicant is a member of a club.
Sort this out and it is a brilliant idea.

[John Collins]

I think that is one of the points on offer on the consultation paper ( cannot find mine at moment!)

For road tax - You( if in trade) or your insurer place your vehicles details etc on database and without this you would not be able to tax it

Equally the MOT station records that vehicle is MOT'd and both these need to be in place before you can tax

So - easy option is that as long as your name shows upon database as belonging to a club - bobs your auntie

Only real problem ( there is always one) it relies soley on the poor old Club Sec having to email in the names when they join the Club - and on a very regular basis
some would have no problem with this at all - may even fire off on a laptop on a Club night or whenever/ however received - but for some others it may be a chore - ot they may be away for a week ot two etc

Still it is certainly one option to consider I think

[Pete_Scorpa3]

John Collins, on 26 May 2011 - 06:03 PM, said:

I think that is one of the points on offer on the consultation paper ( cannot find mine at moment!)

For road tax - You( if in trade) or your insurer place your vehicles details etc on database and without this you would not be able to tax it

Equally the MOT station records that vehicle is MOT'd and both these need to be in place before you can tax

So - easy option is that as long as your name shows upon database as belonging to a club - bobs your auntie

Only real problem ( there is always one) it relies soley on the poor old Club Sec having to email in the names when they join the Club - and on a very regular basis
some would have no problem with this at all - may even fire off on a laptop on a Club night or whenever/ however received - but for some others it may be a chore - ot they may be away for a week ot two etc

Still it is certainly one option to consider I think

Asking membership Secs to confirm each member has joined the club was an option but maintaining a central list at the ACU wasn't. I guess either are almost the same amount of work for all concerned.
Which ever option is adopted, I feel that memberships should be confirmed 'before' the licence is issued. The more automatic the system, then the better it is.

Pete

[Big John]

Pete_Scorpa3, on 26 May 2011 - 06:44 PM, said:

Asking membership Secs to confirm each member has joined the club was an option but maintaining a central list at the ACU wasn't. I guess either are almost the same amount of work for all concerned.
Which ever option is adopted, I feel that memberships should be confirmed 'before' the licence is issued. The more automatic the system, then the better it is.

Pete

Indeed, I agree with that.

And John Collins makes afair point above too.

Big John

[Woody]

Alternatively, why do we need to be in a club to have ACU Membership? What is the specific reason for having to be in a club? It's a genuine question as I have no idea what the club membership fee is allocated to. 100% to club coffers or a portion to the ACU?.

If I take my own club as an example. It's not a big club. For the last few years there have been 5 active members which includes the non-riding secretary and 2, maybe 3 of us being certified clerks of the course. It's usually been the same 3 people who lay out the trials, 7 or 8 a year roughly (this year we have another 2 or 3 helpers)

Historically, any other riders who join the club do so purely to get a licence form signed in order to apply for the ACU registration, usually at our boxing day trial (I'm not criticising this by the way) They aren't actively involved in the club after that, they may ride some of the events. It's impossible to put conditions on membership to say you have to help out by doing x, y or z, as they'd just join another club to get the form signed.

So the club membership doesn't really mean anything. The revenue to our club specifically from club membership is insignificant as we probably get 15 - 20 at the most at a guess. So, what purpose does it serve? They aren't active members and the financial gain is too small to be of significance.

I can appreciate that to survive, a club needs a membership and if you take away the need to join a club, people may not do so and then what happens to the club. On the flip side, if club members aren't active, the club can still flounder.

My argument is that people who are committed to being part of a club and enjoy getting involved in the organisation, will join/renew membership anyway and the club will continue.

So, I can see an argument for being able to apply for ACU registration without the application being signed off by a club secretaty confirming club membership. If a rider has ACU registration and enters a trial, aren't they then covered should they suffer some sort of accident and claim? What, if anything would being member of a club add to that? You won't necessarily be a member of the club in whose trial you are riding.

So, for trials at least (as a pilot) is it possible to just apply for ACU registration without the need to have a club membership.

If this isn't viable, then I favour the earlier proposal that registration includes a nominated club, the fee includes a generic figure for membership (£10?) and the ACU pay the £10 membership portion to the nominated club and notify them of the rider's name. If riders seriously complain at a perceived increase of £10 per annum, I recommend the ACU draft a standardised response telling said riders where to sling their hook and to maybe have a couple less pints one Friday night or reduce the cost of the next clothing/helmet/bike bling purchase by £10.

[Old trials fanatic]

As for the original question then i ticked yes because i agree that a club that puts on trials for my enjoyment need to be supported because if not then like many a corner shop or local pub we wake up one morning and that corner shop, pub or trials club is no more. Simple if you dont support your local club and that includes riding in their events too then dont be surprised if it's not there anymore. I am speaking from personal experience here.

As for the ACU licence it astounds me the amount of riders who either are too tight, lazy or gormless that they cant be bothered to fork out £10 a year for one!

What is a struggling club to do? If the rider cant produce a licence do we take his word and possibly made up licence number, at least do the secretary the honour of writing down a SIX DIGIT number !!!!, for it? or do most clubs refuse entry and make an even bigger loss on the event possibly hastening the demise of an already struggling club?

Whats so complicated about the current system ? if riders cant be bothered to get a license now what makes anybody think any other system will make them?

As i see it the only way to make sure that riders do adopt some form of responsability, about time, then the entry fee needs to incorporate a contribution to the club membership fee, as ours already does, and also includes an increased levy payable as the existing levy is to the ACU. You are NEVER going to convince some of them, thankfully a small but VERY significant minority, to be responsible so the ONLY option is to force them to pay up one way or another.

Whats the point of seeing people once a year so they can get their licence stamped, remember thats only the ones who need a licence probably for Nationals or the Scottish trials, then never see them again till the same time next year.

Trials riders are the worst offenders i would imagine because i cant see anybody getting an entry in Enduro, Moto X or Road Racing without being able to produce a valid licence. Christ how much "trouble" is it to download a form get it signed and stamped at the next event then post it off with a miserly £10. Are trials riders REALLY that hard up? Then again a new pair of raptors is far more important isnt it ?

Anyway thats my take on it

Edited by Old trials fanatic, 22 June 2011 - 12:37 PM.

[Pete_Scorpa3]

The ACU has asked clubs to respond to their proposals by 30th June.
Judging by the small number of votes cast on this subject, very few riders have a preference.

Perhaps this could be explained simply by the fact that few riders have anything to do with their clubs, so they don't care if the clubs have more/less work to do or more/less income generated by licence applications each year?

Failure of clubs to express an opinion to the ACU will result in them using the system that suits them best. (And you can't blame them for that.) However, the system they choose might not be the best one for the clubs.

Does anyone know if their club has replied to the ACU concerning this?