41 replies to this topic

[bdmc]

How many clubs allow riders to compete without a licence


NSC - 7.11 PRODUCTION OF COMPETITION LICENCE OR TRIALS REGISTRATION
1. All Entrants, Riders or Passengers shall carry their current Competition Licence or Trials Registration and must be prepared to produce either document when signing on at a meeting.

2. Any Rider or Passenger in possession of a current Competition Licence or Trials Registration
but unable to produce it when signing on will be permitted to take part in the meeting but will
be subject to a i ne, payable to the ACU Benevolent Fund. h e amount of the i ne will be found
listed in the current edition of the ACU Handbook under “Price List”.

3. Any Rider or Passenger not in possession of a current Competition Licence or Trials
Registration may be permitted to take part in the meeting subject to the decision of the Clerk of
the Course. h e Clerk of the Course will take into account the conditions relating to the issue
of such a Competition Licence or Trials Registration and whether or not it is practicable to
arrange for a completed Licence or Registration application form at the event.
A One-Day Licence may be issued where valid for the status of the event and the discipline
concerned.
4. If a late application for a Competition Licence or Trials Registration is approved by the Clerk of
the Course and the Licence or Registration Fee is paid together with a i ne for non-production
of the Licence or Registration, described in Article 7.11.2 above, the competitor will be
permitted to take part in the meeting.

5. The Clerk of the Course and the Stewards of the Meeting have no power to permit an
unlicensed rider or passenger to take part in a competition for which riders and passengers
must be licensed.




FINES
Levied by ACU Court Unlimited
Levied by National Club,
Centre or Stewards Maximum £500.00
Levied by Clerk of the Course Maximum £500.00
Non production of licence £10.00

[Old trials fanatic]

bdmc, on 20 August 2011 - 08:33 PM, said:

How many clubs allow riders to compete without a licence


NSC - 7.11 PRODUCTION OF COMPETITION LICENCE OR TRIALS REGISTRATION
1. All Entrants, Riders or Passengers shall carry their current Competition Licence or Trials Registration and must be prepared to produce either document when signing on at a meeting.

2. Any Rider or Passenger in possession of a current Competition Licence or Trials Registration
but unable to produce it when signing on will be permitted to take part in the meeting but will
be subject to a i ne, payable to the ACU Benevolent Fund. h e amount of the i ne will be found
listed in the current edition of the ACU Handbook under “Price List”.

3. Any Rider or Passenger not in possession of a current Competition Licence or Trials
Registration may be permitted to take part in the meeting subject to the decision of the Clerk of
the Course. h e Clerk of the Course will take into account the conditions relating to the issue
of such a Competition Licence or Trials Registration and whether or not it is practicable to
arrange for a completed Licence or Registration application form at the event.
A One-Day Licence may be issued where valid for the status of the event and the discipline
concerned.
4. If a late application for a Competition Licence or Trials Registration is approved by the Clerk of
the Course and the Licence or Registration Fee is paid together with a i ne for non-production
of the Licence or Registration, described in Article 7.11.2 above, the competitor will be
permitted to take part in the meeting.

5. The Clerk of the Course and the Stewards of the Meeting have no power to permit an
unlicensed rider or passenger to take part in a competition for which riders and passengers
must be licensed.




FINES
Levied by ACU Court Unlimited
Levied by National Club,
Centre or Stewards Maximum £500.00
Levied by Clerk of the Course Maximum £500.00
Non production of licence £10.00

Is this for real? Is this a wind up? I can see Clubs closing overnight! Who in their right mind would run a club with this hanging over them? Are they seriously expecting riders to pay a fine because they left their license at home even though you've seen it at every other event this year?

[topcat]

Old trials fanatic, on 20 August 2011 - 09:18 PM, said:

Is this for real? Is this a wind up? I can see Clubs closing overnight! Who in their right mind would run a club with this hanging over them? Are they seriously expecting riders to pay a fine because they left their license at home even though you've seen it at every other event this year?

And what about encouraging new riders? we had a beginners and wobblers trial recently in our centre and no one could ride without a licence?
two of my mates fancied a go but it would take at least 3 weeks to get a licence

[2/4]

Like it or not the fact of the matter is that if one of your unlicenced wobblers wobbles in to a "spectator"/parked car etc (who may or may not have anything to do with the event) the insurance company will step swiftly backwards leaving the Club liable.

If they were to indemnify the competitor they would recover sums involved - step forward Mr Club Secretary, your house is first to go!

Edited by 2/4, 21 August 2011 - 07:37 AM.

[bdmc]

Not a wind up. See your AUC Handbook.
All CoC should know this!!!!!
Regarding waiting 3 weeks!!! you can affiliate on the day if you fill in the form and pay your £10.

Quote

Like it or not the fact of the matter is that if one of your unlicenced wobblers wobbles in to a "spectator"/parked car etc (who may or may not have anything to do with the event) the insurance company will step swiftly backwards leaving the Club liable.

Well stated sir.

[Big John]

2/4 makes very valid and legal points above, OTF, you are actually well off the mark, yes I know you don't like the ACU or Scotland, that is evident from your previous posts, you are of course entitled to your opinion, but...!

It has been long debated by the ACU/SACU/MCUI with their insurance providers and advisers that clerk of courses and secretaries have a duty to check the ID of riders, its all in the ACU handbook and has been for years.

Heaven forbid if a non-licenced bloke turns up just for a bit of fun, says he is someone else, but hasn't brought his licence, is allowed to ride and then (God forbid this never happens) runs into and kills someone, perhaps a small child who was spectating, think of the sports' reputational risk and seriously the court action and law suit that would most certainly follow. It just doesn't bare thinking about, and if you don't think that would ever happen, don't be too sure. I personally have seen photographic evidence of this in the last 18 months, but I certainly won't go into detail on an open website!

And if you think I'm just being my usual kidding self, can I just mention one famous persons' case that is still ongoing, sure the bloke was a great driver, he actually started off in Scottish youth in trials - Colin Macrae, look what has happened there! That case is still ongoing. He took off just for a short trip in a helicopter with a friend, his own son and a school pal of his son, Colin was a very accomplished pilot, now the pursuers agents are claiming his paperwork wasn't in order, that included his flying licence.

Just a thought...?

(Sorry if this looks as if its from a Scots perspective, but the principles apply throughout the land)

Big John

[totalshell]

i dont think there is any argument that the correct licence was not held at the time BG. the issue of never been asked to produce a licence always baffles me. in car rallying you have to have your licence and the cars licence no licence no drive simples and yet in trials with 5k bikes we cant show a 10 quid card cos it costs too much.. lazy and incompetant riders would soon get the idea if clubs did ask for your licence its a tenner BG will no doubt relate thst its much more oop north and in spain its more by several hundreds.. you bet they sjhow theres>> get em out lads..

one club local to us lost a piece of land this year when someone put thier foot in a rabbit hole and bypassed the club and the farmer and went straight to the titled person that owns the land.. end of trials use of land..

[Big John]

Totalshell, I remember riding in the 1978 Alan trophy Trial near Carlisle on a 325 Bultaco, I'm almost certain it was some form of championship event, anyway all the top riders were there, I queued up behind: Martin Lampkin; Derrick Edmondson; Nigel Birkett; Malcolm Rathmell and a few more, I was in very distinguished company in that orderly queue.

Without a word spoken EVERY ONE of them produced their ACU licence, the secretary of the meeting did not ask any of them to "show me your licence" they did it automatically.

Now then, if it was good enough for those top rate guys back then, then why are Joe Bloggs and Co not keen to "flash the card" now?

Just try not showing your licence to Highland Lassie at teh Scottish Six Days Trial, you will be told to go home, no licence no ride! They will not take any risks and they don't know everyone who enters!

Rules are rarely made just for a bit of something to do, like petty officialdom. Believe me the ACU card and SACU licence are identification medium to protect your club officials, who do everything for FREE and could loose the shirt of their back because of mindless numbnuts who should grow up and act like sensible human beings and stop whinging!

Big John

[Monty_Jon]

Well said Big John, I did MX for 20+ years and never once forgot my licence!

Edited by Monty_Jon, 27 August 2011 - 07:30 PM.

[Old trials fanatic]

Big John, on 27 August 2011 - 03:05 PM, said:

2/4 makes very valid and legal points above, OTF, you are actually well off the mark, yes I know you don't like the ACU or Scotland, that is evident from your previous posts, you are of course entitled to your opinion, but...!

It has been long debated by the ACU/SACU/MCUI with their insurance providers and advisers that clerk of courses and secretaries have a duty to check the ID of riders, its all in the ACU handbook and has been for years.

Heaven forbid if a non-licenced bloke turns up just for a bit of fun, says he is someone else, but hasn't brought his licence, is allowed to ride and then (God forbid this never happens) runs into and kills someone, perhaps a small child who was spectating, think of the sports' reputational risk and seriously the court action and law suit that would most certainly follow. It just doesn't bare thinking about, and if you don't think that would ever happen, don't be too sure. I personally have seen photographic evidence of this in the last 18 months, but I certainly won't go into detail on an open website!

And if you think I'm just being my usual kidding self, can I just mention one famous persons' case that is still ongoing, sure the bloke was a great driver, he actually started off in Scottish youth in trials - Colin Macrae, look what has happened there! That case is still ongoing. He took off just for a short trip in a helicopter with a friend, his own son and a school pal of his son, Colin was a very accomplished pilot, now the pursuers agents are claiming his paperwork wasn't in order, that included his flying licence.

Just a thought...?

(Sorry if this looks as if its from a Scots perspective, but the principles apply throughout the land)

Big John

Firstly BJ i have no problem with Scotland love the place actually but i dont profess to worship at the holy grail of the Scottish "pre65" two day or think the sun comes out every time the suits at the ACU bend over. I also agree with most though not ALL of the comments made. My perspective is from the point of trying to keep a club going that is pretty close to going under due to lack of entries and the overwhelming amount of red tape being deposited from a great height by the dons at the governing body. The ACU seem to want to use a very broad brush in applying rules and regulations that may be essential in other branches of the sport that they control by may be of dubious importance at a Club trial which is ALL i am concerned with.

The other point i would like to make although i am sure i will get flammed by the previous posters for it is why can i ride at events organised by local clubs who are affiliated to the AMCA where a licence is not even required and NOBODY gets this amount of hassle god forbid a fine!!. They actually get this even welcome new riders now that makes a change? Lets not forget according the the rule book if a potential new rider turns up i am first supposed to get him to fill in a licence application form and donate £10 to the ACU, which is fair enough BTW, i am also supposed to fine him £10 as well because he couldnt produce the licence that he has just completed the form and donated £10 to obtain err only on planet ACU folks.

I am even told by the club secretarys concerned that the AMCA insurers are the same as the ones who insure ACU affiliated clubs events so why do they not require their riders to have licences but the ACU say it is a prerequisite of their insurers? Hmmmm

Fact is if a rider turns up at our event tomorrow who i know has a licence because he has produced it at all our previous events this year and we have recorded that fact in am supposed to fine him because he hasnt produced the licence i know he has. His details are even recorded on the list sent to me by the ACU HO but oh no i MUST fine him or i am liable to a fine. Well i can tell you what his reaction will be he will tell me to sod off and i bet you he will NEVER EVER turn up at one of our events again. I personally know of at least two riders who have had this happen to. They NEVER ride at our events yet always ride at AMCA events in the same events that i ride in. I know this because i canvassed a majourity of the 68 riders at a recent AMCA organised club event whose faces i never see at our event and they all without question came back with the same variations on the same theme. Now the simple fact as i see it is either we get enough bums on seats to keep our club financially afloat, fining riders who have a licence but forget to bring it is NOT a solution well not on this planet i dont know about the one that the ACU live on wherever that is,the club will soon fold so to be honest it wont be a problem will it.

I am very seriously now considering applying to the AMCA for affiliation because they seem much more in touch with what club riders want plus the club doesnt have to contribute anywhere near as much to their governing body per rider when they run an event so financially that makes sense too. I have already been warned unofficially that the ACU will be taking even more out of my clubs funds next year, the centre levy has already gone up, and what do we as a struggling club see for it? We are really struggling to stay afloat as a club yet i have to write cheques after each trial to the ACU for nearly £300 for what ??

I know we need insurance although i have serious reservations about the extent of it should anything ever happen but if AMCA clubs can run events paying less to their governing body than we have to pay to the ACU and dont have to put up with all this red tape then something is wrong with the system and fining riders and organisers is NOT the cure it is a part of the disease.

Something has to change for the better. The dons at the ACU are soooooo out of touch.

Edited by Old trials fanatic, 27 August 2011 - 08:44 PM.

[jon v8]

Why do the ACU insist on calling it a licence anyway ? Its not,its a membership card with yer photo on it.There is no proof of any basic standard of riding ability or proof of health etc - so what is it for ?

[Thedbf]

Old trials fanatic, on 27 August 2011 - 08:33 PM, said:

yet i have to write cheques after each trial to the ACU for nearly £300 for what ??

Jeezy peeps !! That's a lot oh cash, and as you say...for what ????

[Big John]

OTF, stop trying to blame other people for your own club's failures and shortcomings, I don't prescribe to the let's pass the buck malarky! I think you should look inward if your club has a problem?

That's like a businessman who has had a long line of loss making years' pointing a finger at his bank manager and saying, "its your fault you pulled my overdraft out from underneath me and I have now filled for bankrupcy". Was it all the banks' fault? - really?

You honestly believe that it's the ACU's fault that a club fails? - really?

No, there are always mitigating factors, loss of land, change of committee members and direction, rider's preferences changes, standard of riding going up or going down; new people wanting to do things differently etc... etc... etc... etc...zzzzzzzzzz!

We all know about the "recession", but you seem to moan about a £10 ACU registration card when riders are paying £200+ for a pair of Gaerne boots; £45 on a shirt that hardly lasts a season, a 2011 James (or is it a 1963?) which costs in excess of £6,000 to build. Oh do I really need to bore everyone, I'm sure they have heard all this before?

"Trials" really needs to take a look at itself.

I am not trials biased either, I speak to motocrossers and road racers on a regular basis, I have many friends outside of trials, I know a lot of them and even MX and racing organisers say their numbers are down the past few years.

As for the AMCA, they are not a new organisation, they have been around a very long time early 1930's I think they were set up, they do their bit, yes they have the same insurance brokers, Locktons, but they are not on the same deal/terms as ACU/SACU! But they tend to be more trials, enduro and MX orientated, they don't do racing, they are off road only, well OK they do supermoto too, which has some tarmac.

OTF, I am not as "biggotted" towards trials as you are, I embrace all forms of motorcycle sport and the rich band of enthusiasts that do their bit, week in week out - for FREE! That is both AMCA and ACU people. If we had to pay those guys what they were worth over the years, none of us "riders" could have afforded to compete ever, full stop.

Nice thread, I'm out!

Big John
(10:10 - me gone!)

[Old trials fanatic]

Big John, on 27 August 2011 - 09:24 PM, said:

OTF, stop trying to blame other people for your own club's failures and shortcomings, I don't prescribe to the let's pass the buck malarky! I think you should look inward if your club has a problem?

That's like a businessman who has had a long line of loss making years' pointing a finger at his bank manager and saying, "its your fault you pulled my overdraft out from underneath me and I have now filled for bankrupcy". Was it all the banks' fault? - really?

You honestly believe that it's the ACU's fault that a club fails? - really?

No, there are always mitigating factors, loss of land, change of committee members and direction, rider's preferences changes, standard of riding going up or going down; new people wanting to do things differently etc... etc... etc... etc...zzzzzzzzzz!

We all know about the "recession", but you seem to moan about a £10 ACU registration card when riders are paying £200+ for a pair of Gaerne boots; £45 on a shirt that hardly lasts a season, a 2011 James (or is it a 1963?) which costs in excess of £6,000 to build. Oh do I really need to bore everyone, I'm sure they have heard all this before?

"Trials" really needs to take a look at itself.

I am not trials biased either, I speak to motocrossers and road racers on a regular basis, I have many friends outside of trials, I know a lot of them and even MX and racing organisers say their numbers are down the past few years.

As for the AMCA, they are not a new organisation, they have been around a very long time early 1930's I think they were set up, they do their bit, yes they have the same insurance brokers, Locktons, but they are not on the same deal/terms as ACU/SACU! But they tend to be more trials, enduro and MX orientated, they don't do racing, they are off road only, well OK they do supermoto too, which has some tarmac.

OTF, I am not as "biggotted" towards trials as you are, I embrace all forms of motorcycle sport and the rich band of enthusiasts that do their bit, week in week out - for FREE! That is both AMCA and ACU people. If we had to pay those guys what they were worth over the years, none of us "riders" could have afforded to compete ever, full stop.

Nice thread, I'm out!

Big John
(10:10 - me gone!)

Never will see eye to eye then will we? Dont remember suggesting AMCA was a "new" organisation? Also never been called biggotted before LOL perhaps i should get out more bye then

Edited by Old trials fanatic, 27 August 2011 - 09:47 PM.

[jon v8]

Come on chaps,there is no point in falling out over this - its an interesting topic and one that needs discussing.
Like I said I cant really see the point of an ACU licence as it does not prove anything about the rider.If the ACU are worried about losing money why dont they just drop them altogether and include the funding in entry fees as the AMCA do.That way nobody can cop out of paying,when I send the permit form and cheque back to the AMCA after every trial its easy to see that everyone has paid their dues.It also must cost alot of money to print the licences and administer them.