41 replies to this topic

[Woody]

Thanks again John - that's good news

You can give your fingers a rest now, no more questions from me.

[Big John]

John Collins makes some very interesting and well thought out comments (as usual may I say).

I think the fact that he regularly contributes to the debates on here, show that he is far from being a "suit"! He is quite right in taking exception to those remarks, I would as well! I probably wear one of the darned things more often than he does anyway!

JC also eludes to another matter that I have stated many times on here.

The real place for debate is at meetings of the ACU (or whatever organisation you or your club belong to), but of course people don't attend such meetings and seminars, they would rather snipe from the side-lines, which in reality produces very little action.

Big John

[Old trials fanatic]

John Collins, on 30 August 2011 - 12:30 PM, said:

The problem with any debate that involves licences, registrations, insurances, permits and so on, will always at the end of day come down to money ,and why is it needed, and what do I get for it, and why should I pay it etc.

Additionally it is also difficult ( and always has been) to debate such matters when some contributions seem to somehow revolve very much around people talking out of their rear end, or even worse just making wild and inaccurate assumptions in order to strengthen any argument. Logic and reason seems to go out of the window, and contributors who normally make sensible and valid points , and yes, often offer constructive criticism, seem to shoot off on some path of righteous indignation – because they see the collection of any money as a force of evil
Perhaps we can move back to the real world
At the end of all this – what we are actually talking about is the sum of £10.
It is not a licence. We call it a Registration. It has a £10 charge

In ALL the other disciplines we have a “ licence” which at present costs £43.
All this has been said many times before

Now to move to some of OTF rather dubious points , and here lies a very good example of someone who regularly makes very interesting and intelligent points ( even if I do not always agree with them) but now suddenly because some money is involved he seems very eager to cast aspersions in each or any direction

First OTF , I take great exception in being called or regarded as a “ suit” . This is a derogatory remark, usually made by those who have either no idea of how things work or who cannot be bothered to find out

I together with T & E Mick Wren, are the only people on TC who uses correct names ,therefore my actions, workload and enthusiasm can be judged accurately.

I do own a suit , but rarely wear it except unfortunately these days for more and more funerals.

If the implication is of course that because I, and others like me , spend time and produce initiatives and decisions that you do not like , then we are “suits” living or working in some ivory tower in Rugby out of touch with the real world , then I am afraid the shoe is on the other foot – and perhaps you need to look at your own shortcomings?

Your “ ooooh so out of touch” comment applies far more to you than it does to me or others

You mention that your concern is regarding a Club Trial ,which is “ALL” you are concerned with

Personally I would be embarrassed to make such a statement.

Even if I were only to be involved in running/ being involved local level trials ( and I probably run as may or probably more than you) I would still wish to at least have an opinion or interest in all other aspects of Trials , else why else do you take time to even read or contribute to this site?

Me thinks the £10 has got you in a bit of a tiz?

Refer to me as a “ Don” again, and you and I will certainly be on a collision course

I work just has hard as you each day, AND and , in addition to that work totally unpaid and put in a huge amount of time and effort for the ACU ,as do all other Committee Directors and Committee members

If you can prove that in any week of the 52 week year you put in even 50% of the unpaid time I put in , I will personally buy you a high quality “ suit” which you can wear with pride instead of your sackcloth and ashes.

By all means have your view about how things are done, by all means criticise, but to just insult because you have no inclination or desire to take the time to think things through is just plain ignorant

Now, for those with some common sense:

Instead of a licence we pay £10 for Registration . Why? Well that actually is a debatable point ,but such debates usually get sidetracked by prats insinuating that there is some ulterior motive or some great scheme of financial wizadry by those who have been elected to look after such things.

Trying to look at it is simple terms
We need a register or list of our participants for lots of various reasons.
It helps when the ACU send people ( at a cost) to various bodies such as Gov’s local authorities, DEFRA and so on to be able to accurately quote ( and prove) that we have xxxxxx number of Trials participants.

Our Insurers ( and I am not interested in the miss information given by some with dubious comparison) - like to work on the basis – even if only for calculation and statistics and knowing who they are insuring – of having a data base ( probably wrong words) of the riders they are insuring.

The legal advice we have received ( and paid with all our money for) over may years has definitely been that our rider in all disciplines and our Officials are better served and better protected if they are supplied with a set of Regulations and so on, I am aware we have debated this before ,and various people have various views, and as you know we are moving swiftly to the CD disc etc , but without getting bogged down and making this even longer , at the present time ,and for foreseeable future we will be supplying riders with a handbook or CD. This we are told at present offers them best protection, and until we are told otherwise we will continue.

Equally , the demand came, not from the “ dons or suits” but from the membership/clubs and Centres that communication needed to be VASTLY improved , and the production of a magazine , to be posted out several times a year followed. Not everyone cup of tea perhaps – but asked for.

It is totally futile and absurd and try to debate the sense or not of this with a limited number of posts on a Web site. Ones view will vary, especially if you begrudge the £10. However there is probably very little in life to do with money /fees paid that we could not argue or debate? As an example I offer the hot topic of Student fee’s. If you have no kids going to University , the increase in fee’s probably does not bother you ,if you do have kids in further education, it does. Your view will always vary ,and so we all in such matters have to leave the decisions to others.
Criticise such decisions , certainly , but we have to accept that someone somewhere has to make the initial decisions.

So , with handbook, magazines, and very importantly the postage , and also the important fact that as someone else has correctly spotted ,even to issue the registration cards, produce and post out the forms and so on there is a production and staff costs.
Now if anyone believes this can be done in its entirety for much less than £10 – then they also believe in Father Xmas.

Certainly , as I have tried to point out, we may or may not agree with the way this £10 is spent , but that is life, we have what we have. It is all subject to debate and review, and this happens – this is where we are.

Moving on , I have tried in a very rough fashion ,to explain how this Registration works.

The other disciplines spend £43 on a licence ( and in very simple terms one could surmise that £10 of this is used in the same way as above, leaving approx £33 into ACU account)

So , it does not take brain of Britain to deduce that if everyone else is paying £43 and we as Trials pay £10 – there is a shortfall.
Rather than charge everyone a £43 licence fee , we choose for Trials only at present to charge £10 and then collect the remainder by means of a levy. The SACU prefer a One off licence fee’s, There are always pro’s and con’s

This means that each time we ride, we pay part of that entry fee to the ACU coffers. At present that amounts to £1.50

Obviously there are winners and losers. If you ride a lot ,you pay more . If you ride occasionally it is better value. I would have though OTF in his quest to make things inexpensive for first timers etc could have worked this out

We could debate this for ever ( and have in past, but again there will be lots views ,all obviously curried by ones own experience. I know I have paid £43 for my Enduro licence which I rarely use ,so would be better with a levy. I know my son who rides trials most weeks would be better with a £43 licence

Incidentally, this “ don” paid £43 for a licence ,and although severely hampered by ACU work , still manages about 12 – 15 Trials rides a year which means I pay about £65.50 in total.

I should I think move next to the next complication , or information used to make a point ,which may be accurate, but not necessarily clear.

OTF - states that we writes out £300 to ACU after each trial – and asks for what ?

Well many people including myself organise events in my club ,young and old , and while you would expect me to have knowledge in such matters , I assure you all the others do to ,they have taken the trouble to read the form and find out ,and have asked any questions they are unsure of

In any trial , it is true that the Sec at the end of the event will send a cheque to the ACU , at one time , when I was a Centre Sec ( for about 20 years) my Club and the Centres were sending out cheques here there and everywhere , eg one check to Insurer’s, one cheque for ACU levies, one cheque to Ben Fund and so on.

This costs clubs ( and therefore ultimately the riders) money. We made a conscious effort to make things simpler for the Clubs ( I think it may be called trying to remove Red tape?), so now usually all the various monies are sent to the ACU , where then they are divided up .

Although it takes time and space, I will attempt a simple analysis.

As already stated :£1.50 is the ACU levy , all this debated.

Believe it or not – but we need to pay for Insurance. We need and have in each and every ACU trial a £30 million Public Liability cover. We have in each and every trial cover for Observers and Officials obviously – and various other cover for riders and so on.

It will be a very brave ( or stupid) man indeed who thinks we can do without such cover.

Each time you ride – you pay £2.70p for this cover. Here everyone must realise that there is a huge variation between events, numbers, severity , claims, etc – it is all a complicated issue – and the “ dons” have to sit down with insurers and take a joint approach etc ( I just looked in my diary and so far this year have had 4 full day meetings on the insurance topic with insurers)If OTF can achieve this for less than £2.70p a time – show me? If riders think £2.70 a ride is too much to pay for this cover – I fear you are in wrong sport

I will tell you all categorically and offer my resignation if not true that in 2011 the ACU will not have made 1p profit on the insurance – in fact quite the opposite – this year it will probably be subsidised out of general funds which was an attempt to keep the cost down for riders. I am going to make no apolgy for this – it was correct thing to do.

So, when the " cheque" goes off to the ACU, it is a total of the levies plus insurance

Each event has a Permit, which is complicated but is more or less a legal requirement. For most local events the Centre have a charge for this, it varies ,but on average I suppose costs around £25 for the event. Some Centres do not charge ,and collect some funds via another levy.

Centres of course also have costs , they usually have a volunteer Secretary , but surely even the most money conscious trials rider should not expect him to pay for postage stamps ( can be considerable) phone calls, photo-copying, printer consumables and so on. The Centre has costs for room hire, admin etc, just think about the cost of sending teams to Inter Centre? And so on. The Centre therefore often also levies a charge which comes out of your entry fee. All other monies , will go to the individual club/organiser. In rough terms, the ACU levy, insurance and so on will amount to about £5 of your entry

We cannot possibly leave the subject however without everyone shouting, well you have explained how it all works – but why do the ACU need money in first place ? ( I mean the levy or licence fee now – not the £10 registration which I have explained)

Well , it would need about 10 times this post to even scratch the surface – AND – this is very important, as soon as some facts/ explanations are given they will often be twisted and miss-interpreted , which is the reason I started this post in first place.

I have already stated ( and done so many times before) ACU Directors do not get paid. ACU Committee people do not get paid , but obviously there are staff such as secretaries who do. Obviously when people travel to meetings or events, their fuel has to paid for

I know we could have a small office somewhere else, and run the whole thing from a shoe box, but we have what we have , and again there are administration charges. Yes these can be big , are they looked at ? Constantly, but as with any large company , it is a complicated and often frustrating exercise

I have said before, I object very strongly to paying to much Council tax I am sure if I were a Councillor, I would cut XYZ , but I am not a Councillor ,as I could not be bothered ,and probably would have been no good or not elected, so however I may disagree with the Mr Mayor down the road, he is doing the job , and I am not.
I am actually prepared if people so wish to go into a lot more detail on where the actual money goes – but what I will never be prepared to do is give detailed figures for prats to analyse and dissect putting their own slant on it
I read in a recent post about how ACU should not be doing XYX – but should be giving some money to help up and coming young riders

I read somewhere else some time ago that ACU should not be subsidising young riders out of ordinary riders levies?

This year the ACU will give £21k in total to selected young Trials & Enduro riders ( 50% to each discipline) – in order to try to assist them competing at International level. It gave £21k last year and £21 k the year before etc. Some will agree, some think it should be more, some think it should be less – it depends on you view

OTF is only interested in Club events. I am interested in the wider spectrum. I WANT to see a British team, both Men and Women in TDN each year. Since I have been involved this has cost over £100k over the years

I want to see representation to Government to try to fight the various and constant threats to our sport. The ACU – together with the AMCA , and together with Industry ,pay for this in a joint approach.

I wanted staff to be employed and paid for to fight the last DEFRA threat, which we did.

There are numerous and many things that all cost money ,it is absolutely impossible for us all to ever agree on what should or should not be spent on this or that. Want your say - want to be part of thgis decision making process ? Fill in the form via your Centre to be Committee or Director ,these forms are there each year. There may usually be a fair few people standing for Sport Commitees - but financial decisions such as licence fee's, insurnace and so on ar taken by ACU Directors , and recently there have been times when there have been no volunteers, otr at least very few. Perhaps OTF should apply? Perhaps he would not be so eager to talk of " suits and dons" if he held the legal and financial responsibility that everty compant Director in UK holds?

There is however a very good litmus test when it comes to assessing the real criteria about what riders actually pay for their sport

a) Does any Governing body collect in monies ,which after all the expenditure is deducted, leaves it with a large profit which it can bank and sit on , in other accumulate wealth to enhance that body and make it ever so important

Try to regulate its expenditure, but set licence fee’s and levies as well as insurance costs to cover all the costs , but leave some small surplus to pay for future projects and cover rainy days. Yearly increase in licence/ insurance and levies must follow even if only to counteract inflation.

c) Try in difficult times to look at expenditure, try to keep costs to rider as stable as possible, but not reduce the activities it thinks are important, even if it means suffering short term loss , paid for from any surplus as described in (


I think, the best option is ( but I have to tell you we are currently working with ©

(a) To me is a non starter , although other may tend to think this is what is happening , probably because it is easier to make inaccurate and silly comments rather than engage brain.

This is what I mean , there will ALWAYS be differing opinion. You cannot possibly have thousands or even hundreds of individuals making such decisions ,so what you have to do is select or actually elect some people to do it - AND - if this is not satisfactory ,de-select or de elect them, simples . But you do not achieve this by thinking there are a bunch of “ suits or dons” making such decisions

What there are – are some people who are trying to put something back in via their time and effort ,and it is a fact that the vast majority do not wish, or cannot be bothered to do so.

To sum it all up – as a Trials rider , I pay £10 ( the price of 3 pints ) and at present about £15 every time I ride

I have to say , and everyone calls me tight , I ain’t too bothered about this ,and if you have mates who ride Enduro, MX, R/Race or Grass Track – explain to them if you think it is too much

Ok first things first. Just got back from a few days break so only just had time to catch up on this thread.

John i've "known" and done business with you for a long while and if you have taken offence by my comments which i didnt direct at you personally i unequivacably appologise to you as i never intended any offence to you personally. Must admit dont quite see why you have taken such offence but obviously you have so i feel an appology to you should be in order.

I've read your post and follow where you are coming from even though i dont empathise with some of your sentiments but as you say what we have is what we have so put up or shut up. I have voiced my feelings btw on more than one occaision to more than one local ACU official so not just "sniping from the sidelines".

Now i may be thick and i'm sure BJ will probably agree with that comment, theres a first LOL, but nobody has still explained to me why two local AMCA affiliated clubs can run trials on the same land that we do, ACU affiliated club, yet they do not require their riders to have a licence of any form yet we have to ? why is that ?

Lastly i have no problem paying £10 each year to the ACU and will continue to do so but when i showed some riders at our last event who showed an interest the forms i have to complete and itemised how much of their £15 entry fee went to the ACU in one form or another they without exception were genuinely amazed. As for John Collins details of the future proposals. We dont have a membership fee and it doesnt look like we will in the near future i dont quite see how that will work for the current riders who nominate our club as their club but we will wait and see.

Interesting thread and some interesting comments though.

Edited by Old trials fanatic, 03 September 2011 - 08:12 PM.

[Rosey]

We all know that trials is cheap. This is in reality due to the hard work (mainly) of the event organisers and understanding landowners.

Unless you have been involved with running an event you do not know the hassle involved.

I dont think the ACU £10 charge for an I.D card is good or bad. Nowadays you can call it an admin charge.

My question is ... out of interest... and maybe it has been mentioned but I didn't read it.


Q. How many Trials 'ID' cards are issued every year by the ACU?

I'm wondering how many active (or activeish) competitors there are?

Thanks

Edited by Rosey, 07 September 2011 - 12:51 PM.

[Old trials fanatic]

Just to try and get back to the original posting the thing i object the most to is the bit about ME being liable to a fine of £500 if I dont do the ACU's job. OK before BJ and the rest of the wolf pack descend i know it's only like collecting vat on behalf of the government but it really annoys me that the ACU see fit to threaten to do that.

I'm sure i will be told how missguided i am but that is how it makes me feel.

[Nigel Dabster]

Old trials fanatic, on 16 September 2011 - 10:19 AM, said:

Just to try and get back to the original posting the thing i object the most to is the bit about ME being liable to a fine of £500 if I dont do the ACU's job. OK before BJ and the rest of the wolf pack descend i know it's only like collecting vat on behalf of the government but it really annoys me that the ACU see fit to threaten to do that.

I'm sure i will be told how missguided i am but that is how it makes me feel.

you are misguided.

you are not doing their job, you are doing yours and as such covering your backside making sure everyone is registered and therefore insured.

[Old trials fanatic]

Nigel Dabster, on 16 September 2011 - 12:52 PM, said:

you are misguided.

you are not doing their job, you are doing yours and as such covering your backside making sure everyone is registered and therefore insured.

But Nigel i keep coming back to the point that why do the same insurers, Locktons, not require riders to have a licence at AMCA events but allegedly do at ACU events. I just dont get it? I really dont.

[Big John]

Old trials fanatic, on 16 September 2011 - 09:01 PM, said:

But Nigel i keep coming back to the point that why do the same insurers, Locktons, not require riders to have a licence at AMCA events but allegedly do at ACU events. I just dont get it? I really dont.

Paul, don't keep up this "Oh Big John doesn't like me" carry on...

Locktons ARE the ACU and AMCA insurers (for the moment...) but the policies provided are not the same for both!

Write a letter to Dawn Luby and ask her, that's what to do!

Big John

[Old trials fanatic]

Big John, on 16 September 2011 - 10:55 PM, said:

Paul, don't keep up this "Oh Big John doesn't like me" carry on...

Locktons ARE the ACU and AMCA insurers (for the moment...) but the policies provided are not the same for both!

Write a letter to Dawn Luby and ask her, that's what to do!

Big John

You infer in your post that Locktons may not be the insurer next year. Will the replacement be specifying that ALL riders MUST be current ACU registration card holders ?

[Nigel Dabster]

Old trials fanatic, on 17 September 2011 - 09:04 PM, said:

You infer in your post that Locktons may not be the insurer next year. Will the replacement be specifying that ALL riders MUST be current ACU registration card holders ?

they should be anyway. if not why not?

[Big John]

I did not infer any such thing!

The ACU and AMCA regularly review their business partners like most businesses. Locktons are not an "insurance company" they are specialist motorsport insurance brokers!

Previous brokers acting for ACU/SACU have been CT Bowering Muir Bedall; Marsh MacLennan etc, it has not always been Lockton's.

Big John

[Rosey]

I'm still interested in how many ID cards the ACU issues?