30 replies to this topic

[rosey]

Nigel Dabster, on 01 December 2011 - 06:09 AM, said:

Trick riding started with bernie and the pivot turn, 3rd gear slipping the clutch in southern mud, then the bunny hop and so on, all when the rules were no stop called progress something you cannot stop whatever the sport and that was way before any stop allowed.
All sports change and evolve and harping back to the good old days wont help us now, we need to look at what we are doing to make the sport attractive and affordable.

It did in a way, but the fact that Bernie which Bernie?? Clifton ??? did his floaters everywhere really did not require a rule change, neither did 3rd gear mud burning... (apart from banning mud!)

Anyway I'm with you on this bit.... What do we need to do to make the sport attractive and affordable? 2nd hand bikes are affordable! don't need riding kit as modern trials clothes are no better than a tracksuit. Helmet £30 .. boots .. erm £100...

Attractive.... erm?? let me see? Sunny weather? Bikini clad officials? (preferably slim ... oh and female!)

I don't see going no-stop as turning the clock back its a small change to the definition of a 5! .. Yes it would be nice to see FIM make the decision, or Spain as all the others would then have followed on.

Edited by Rosey, 01 December 2011 - 01:49 PM.

[tricks]

A tyre rule may work in some area's of the country but not others, The last 3 local events i have been to have seen a reduction in laps and many section removed [mid trial] due to un-ridable ground conditions - we need tractor tyre's in Wales not less grippy ones!!

[danbeaven]

No we have a choice or brands all offering slightly different compounds and carcasses. If I understand you correctly, you are saying a 'control tire' which, akin to other sports, would mean a single make/model. If you are instead saying a change in ACU's specification on tires and thus forcing the issue on tire manufacturers ... good luck, remember the UK is only a small part of the worldwide market

Personally I think the problem lies in the identity of the sport. It started - and for the most part will always be - as a 'grass roots sport' and never as a measure of professionalism/elitism. Undeniably the sport has grown far away from it's origins, and our best riders do exemplify professionalism/elitism but for the most part, the majority are so far removed from this and have little or no interest in this level. If you want to make it more 'accesible' then take a randomized survey of people NOT involved/connected with the sport and find out what their initial thoughts on it are and what would stop/encourage them to find out more/take part. (I don't mean showing them clips of world rounds either, show footage of their local club trials) Even still I doubt you'd find the answer.

Rant over, back on topic, I WAS thinking of starting up doing trials competitions again this year - this thread has just reminded me why I stopped

[pete_scorpa3]

DanBeaven, on 01 December 2011 - 02:46 PM, said:

Rant over, back on topic, I WAS thinking of starting up doing trials competitions again this year - this thread has just reminded me why I stopped

I'm sorry my question has caused you to reconsider a return to trials. It's only a question about tyres.

[danbeaven]

Apologies it was not your question directly, but, rather the whole reasoning behind why this or that change should/should not be made - in my opinion rather than this focus of making it more mainstream/more professional/more investment/more more more etc, why not concentrate on the core of what it already is? A good fun sport as an 'alternative' to bat/ball/field sports. Why do most people do 'something' during their spare time? For enjoyment? Or for reward? I certainly know when I initially started trials it was for the 'fun factor' and as a release. Yes at a later stage like every schoolboy I did dream and aspire to be part of the elite, but that was certainly not why I started. If it was I should've stuck to eating!

Why not focus on improving the product we already have? I.e ways to increase the enjoyment/value for money etc at it's core. Then it might, just might, increase it's appeal to the outsider, if they all see what a 'jolly' we are having riding round on dirt mopeds!

[old trials fanatic]

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[old trials fanatic]

Pete_Scorpa3, on 01 December 2011 - 07:02 AM, said:

And tyres is something that can be changed and policed relatively easily.

Having less grip would mean riders lost more marks, so sections could be easier.

This would open up land that currently is not challenging enough and help to prevent errosion that is effecting the land we already have.

There is a strong and growing core of enthusiasts in the sport who think this may be the way forward.

At first glance this seems a good idea however i think very soon you would find "works" tyres evolving. As long as the same mould is used the tyre would look to all intents and purposes the same as the tyre Joe Public buys but like a "works bike" it's what you cant see that matters. How apart from cutting the tyre in pieces do you check the construction? How do you test the rubber compound without a lab? etc etc etc Road tyres alrady have multi compound construction and track day tyres though they look similar to road tyres bear no resemblance in reality just try a set and be amazed. So tyres ? wide open to abuse i'm afraid.

[ishy]

DanBeaven, on 01 December 2011 - 02:46 PM, said:

If you want to make it more 'accesible' then take a randomized survey of people NOT involved/connected with the sport and find out what their initial thoughts on it are and what would stop/encourage them to find out more/take part.

I agree with your posts Dan.

About 12 years ago when TA was the main trials site Andy, could of been running it then I can't remember but I did a survey on both TA and Todo trial asking nothing more than what age of rider are you, then as now the majority are over 40, the young riders are for the most part in the game because dad sponsors them and most kid's like to copy dad.
the age group from 20 to 35 was the least supported and I would put that down to sex, booze, no $$$$$$$$$$$, wife, new kid's and or new home.
Times are tough but one would think a low cost motor sport would have more appeal in tough times, so what is keeping old riders from coming back or new riders starting?.

[danbeaven]

well for new riders I'd say awareness and accesibility.
But i'm not talking about at top flight level. On frequent occasions 'outsiders' have related trials to a bit of indoor world champs they might have seen on tv, or the odd youtube clip of Fred Crosset/Julien Dupont doing their thing.
What I mean is at basic club level. Get those events promoted more, like in the local rag. If there was also a bit more strucure to a club level event I could see it helping the outisder to understand - things like starting order/times? better signage? I can imagine someone competely new to the sport turning up at an event (remember this is CLUB level) at say 12 and just seeing it as controlled mayhem! A load of people riding riding aimlessly round a wood and then sitting in queues to wobble between a few coloured gates! Perhaps trials should look at enduros/MX and why they are more accesible/easy to spectate and understand? Because the viewer can stand in one place and follow the whole competition from that viewing spot? Or becuase there is notable structure/programme to the day?

Another point that I think would help is if traders were in attendance at club events? It gives a point of contact for an outsider to ask questions but also to enquire about overcoming the biggest obstacle to the sport - equipment (kit, bike, transport etc). I think this could benefit both parties PROVIDED the trader doesn't go all out on lining their pockets - ideally it needs to be someone who deals in cheap secondhand bikes and boots/helmets/bike racks/trailers.
thoughts?

[motorcycleemptyness]

Old trials fanatic, on 01 December 2011 - 08:52 PM, said:

At first glance this seems a good idea however i think very soon you would find "works" tyres evolving. As long as the same mould is used the tyre would look to all intents and purposes the same as the tyre Joe Public buys but like a "works bike" it's what you cant see that matters. How apart from cutting the tyre in pieces do you check the construction? How do you test the rubber compound without a lab? etc etc etc Road tyres alrady have multi compound construction and track day tyres though they look similar to road tyres bear no resemblance in reality just try a set and be amazed. So tyres ? wide open to abuse i'm afraid.

This i believe, is what happened in the 80's , at least one of the tyre manufacturers were making softer compound tyres in the same moulds as the ones being sold to the public , resulting in the top riders having softer more grippy tyres.
Is this what you want ?

[pete_scorpa3]

motorcycleemptyness, on 03 March 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

This i believe, is what happened in the 80's , at least one of the tyre manufacturers were making softer compound tyres in the same moulds as the ones being sold to the public , resulting in the top riders having softer more grippy tyres.
Is this what you want ?

This is very common and one of the arguments against having a control tyre. However, it shouldn't be a reason to discount the idea completely.

[chewy]

All this stuff about tyres is a bit of a red herring, the future riders and organisers of our sport (which like every other sport is constantly evolving) don't like , can't do no stop line riding (only a generalisation). The old brigade /purists don't like/ can't do stop ,pose, reposition, blat up a big old obstacle. The real crunch seems to be that the future riders need the old brigade to organise and observe and the old brigade are not interested, particularly when a succession of riders get into their section and commence to stop with foot down, reposition front end ...reposition back end... discuss gear selection with minder et al, select gear three or four times rev out engine till it nearly explodes, set off and promptly stop at the next obstacle in the section and repeat the process. What we need now is a compromise between the the two "camps". probably sensible section setting out would be the most simple thing to allow all parties involved to have a good days trialing.

[atomant]

Just stating the obvious but surely its all in the design of the section. The issue is more to do with what the course plotters have to work with in relation to the terrain available.

Edited by AtomAnt, 04 March 2012 - 06:48 PM.

[totalshell]

lesons have been taught and learnt the hard way year after year and yet they seem so quickly forgotten. trials attracted hundrds of entries when you turned up attempted to ride a bike up a hill.
trials became harder entries fell like a stone so organisers made em easy and entries soared ( the ssdt is a classic example)
when the national championship attracts 10 or fewer entries thats a concern when only one stays in single figures or that some of those riding never do better than 3 a section and when as happenend more than once last year a rider drops less than 5 only 5 times in the trial thats not good for trials or riders..

take a look at something like the alan jefferies traditional road trial big lap traditional sections 100's want to ride and more spectate and guess what after the final sections the best riders win and they are the best riders in the country. no need for 6 foot splats artifical sections perimeter tape.

the message is clear. give lads sections they can ride and feel they half a chance of better than a three and they ll be there in droves.

[02-apr]

chewy, on 04 March 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

All this stuff about tyres is a bit of a red herring, the future riders and organisers of our sport (which like every other sport is constantly evolving) don't like , can't do no stop line riding (only a generalisation). The old brigade /purists don't like/ can't do stop ,pose, reposition, blat up a big old obstacle. The real crunch seems to be that the future riders need the old brigade to organise and observe and the old brigade are not interested, particularly when a succession of riders get into their section and commence to stop with foot down, reposition front end ...reposition back end... discuss gear selection with minder et al, select gear three or four times rev out engine till it nearly explodes, set off and promptly stop at the next obstacle in the section and repeat the process. What we need now is a compromise between the the two "camps". probably sensible section setting out would be the most simple thing to allow all parties involved to have a good days trialing.

It's all in the mind. I had a wry smile to myself at the Kinlochleven round last year - all the usual farting about in the section but when the whistle was close to sounding then magically they could do the last two thirds of the section at speed, clean, with no apparent effort.

[spenser]

I would tend to agree with totalshell. The difficulty of our club trials has steadily increased, with the "fun factor" and attendance decreasing. It is pretty discouraging when intermediate and advanced riders take 60 plus points in 2nd place, and are beat up to boot! Other than the already regulated minimum weight and materials requirements of the bikes, there is no need to change any additional regulations as they relate to the machine.
Spencer