10 replies to this topic

[Peanut]

My mate Tim just acquired a Dalesman and we have started on the restoration/rebuild process. There is no frame number but the log book shows the frame number as the engine number but with a '1)' in front and also that it was registered in March '69 by Terry Silvesters in Holmfirth. The story goes that they sold it to their sponsored rider who may or may not be a Mr Anthony, the second owner. It is a four speed and has very flimsy forks that have suffered a heavy frontal impact witnessed by bent fork yokes and egg-shaped rim.The frame, which has only a slight kink in the top-tube, is reynolds 531 and much lighter than it looks. Both rims were chromed steel and so are probably original. One of the shocks was bent but the other is ok. The tank was orange with a later style of logo on. From the information on previous strands I think that it ought to have a green frame rather than a hammerite grey one and that the tank should be polished alloy with a Puch badge. There is a heavy application of filler on the tank under the orange paint! Obviously 40 odd years means that things don't always stay original.
Tim's dad actually sold Jim Lee the premises that he used in Birstall Smithies so there is a bit of a family link there!
We are looking for any help and information and maybe some rims and tyres but I think that mentioning that might be against forum policy so please edit this sentence.
Looking forward to adding to the sum of Dalesman knowledge.
Martin
nb, the forks on the frame in the picture are a set of Honda ones temporarily in place to check fit in case the originals prove unrepairable.

[Big John]

I had a 1969 Dalesman Puch 4 speeder, engine number 3690609. It was a specially built ISDT bike which Ernie Page rode in the 1969 ISDT at Garmisch Partenkirchen, Bavaria in the SACU Vase B Team.

Frame should be green in colour, similar to the green farmers used to paint their window frames with. Tractol did a very close shade in plant enamel, almost John Deere tractor green to be more precise.

Tank was alloy and I have 1971 style tank decals Dalesman - Puch with the union jack and chequered flag, but the 1969 bikes had a large decal with a Green flash on white background with the Puch roundel at the foot and "DALESMAN PUCH" in black block capitals.

Trials used the spindly Puch moped forks and front wheel laced to a Dunlop WM1 21 inch rim and M125 rear wheel with 18 inch WM3 rim.

My bike had REH forks and conical hub with 20 inch BSA satinised Dunlop WM1 rim and a centre stand.

Frames were all Renolds 531 brazed.

Hope this helps, for anything else PM me!

Big John

[Peanut]

Big John, on 22 January 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

I had a 1969 Dalesman Puch 4 speeder, engine number 3690609. It was a specially built ISDT bike which Ernie Page rode in the 1969 ISDT at Garmisch Partenkirchen, Bavaria in the SACU Vase B Team.

Frame should be green in colour, similar to the green farmers used to paint their window frames with. Tractol did a very close shade in plant enamel, almost John Deere tractor green to be more precise.

Tank was alloy and I have 1971 style tank decals Dalesman - Puch with the union jack and chequered flag, but the 1969 bikes had a large decal with a Green flash on white background with the Puch roundel at the foot and "DALESMAN PUCH" in black block capitals.

Trials used the spindly Puch moped forks and front wheel laced to a Dunlop WM1 21 inch rim and M125 rear wheel with 18 inch WM3 rim.

My bike had REH forks and conical hub with 20 inch BSA satinised Dunlop WM1 rim and a centre stand.

Frames were all Renolds 531 brazed.

Hope this helps, for anything else PM me!

Big John

Thanks BJ,
I had hoped that you would reply after seeing the other posts. Does the frame look 'right' for 'first batch' four-speeder (apart from the kinky top-tube, that is)There isn't a trace of green paint anywhere on it. So far as the tank logo goes, I have a B&W picture from an old 'Motorcycle sport' article but it just has the Puch badge on. Have you a picture of the correct logo?
Tim can't decide whether to go for an accurate restoration or to add things like alloy rims. We have kept the original forks but they are very sloppy so the Honda ones might have to stop on. It will need two new rims anyway, as the originals are well-taco'd. We put them in our wheel-building jig but they are twisted and dinted in two-places each.
I think we can get away with the original spokes as none are bent so it's a case of seeing who has the best deal on rims.
Thanks again for replying and I'll continue to post as we continue the build.

Edited by Peanut, 22 January 2012 - 09:12 PM.

[treevor]

Howdo Peanut.
I can't add much to whats available on here already about them.
But I have just put one back together to use in our local trials and found I needed parts to make it usable.
First was front brakeshoes, they are the same size as a Honda C90 step through mopeds (chickenchasers)and only need a minutes work with a file to make them fit the backplate. Second was final drive sprocket, exactly the same splines as Beta 125 trials and if you use the Talon ones for the early model they come with a 'shoulder' on to space them away from crankcases so you can use an 11 tooth sprocket with heavy duty 428 chain. I have used a 68 tooth on the rear and it is just about ok for trials with this setup.
I am just about to install an extra flywheel weight to see if it help with the low speed running and am going to try a different exhaust after I have spoken to a few 'Dalesmen' at the Telford show.
The impression I got from other trials version owners was they were pretty hopeless for trials back in the day but ok for shoolboy scrambles and enduro. I hope to prove this wrong and have set about trying to improve it overall, constructing a bashplate with integral footrest mounts lowering and moving them back, I have several swing arms that have had shock mounts and length altered and by using these I am sure I can find a usable chassis.
The biggest challenge will be the engine, it runs very sweet as it is but is seriouly lacking in low end power, again I have several barrels to play with and a ported oversized liner is one of the ideas I had in mind, taking dimensions from my Fantic 200 barrel.
I don't consider any of these mods to be outside the rules as the basic frame and engine appearance will not change and everyone I know has tried to tune their motors in one way or another.
Good Luck with the project
Trevor

Edited by treevor, 23 January 2012 - 12:11 PM.

[Peanut]

treevor, on 23 January 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

Howdo Peanut.
I can't add much to whats available on here already about them.
But I have just put one back together to use in our local trials and found I needed parts to make it usable.
First was front brakeshoes, they are the same size as a Honda C90 step through mopeds (chickenchasers)and only need a minutes work with a file to make them fit the backplate. Second was final drive sprocket, exactly the same splines as Beta 125 trials and if you use the Talon ones for the early model they come with a 'shoulder' on to space them away from crankcases so you can use an 11 tooth sprocket with heavy duty 428 chain. I have used a 68 tooth on the rear and it is just about ok for trials with this setup.
I am just about to install an extra flywheel weight to see if it help with the low speed running and am going to try a different exhaust after I have spoken to a few 'Dalesmen' at the Telford show.
The impression I got from other trials version owners was they were pretty hopeless for trials back in the day but ok for shoolboy scrambles and enduro. I hope to prove this wrong and have set about trying to improve it overall, constructing a bashplate with integral footrest mounts lowering and moving them back, I have several swing arms that have had shock mounts and length altered and by using these I am sure I can find a usable chassis.
The biggest challenge will be the engine, it runs very sweet as it is but is seriouly lacking in low end power, again I have several barrels to play with and a ported oversized liner is one of the ideas I had in mind, taking dimensions from my Fantic 200 barrel.
I don't consider any of these mods to be outside the rules as the basic frame and engine appearance will not change and everyone I know has tried to tune their motors in one way or another.
Good Luck with the project
Trevor

Thank you Trevor,
I imagine that the exhaust plays a large part in the power delivery and I recall some talk in a thread somewhere that the pilot jet was too large.Maybe you could plug the port data into a programme that designs expansion chambers?

Cheers

Martin

[Loydee]

Peanut, on 23 January 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

Thank you Trevor,
I imagine that the exhaust plays a large part in the power delivery and I recall some talk in a thread somewhere that the pilot jet was too large.Maybe you could plug the port data into a programme that designs expansion chambers?

Cheers

Martin

Good to see another Dalesman returning to action. If it's any help to you I've got a lot of Dalesman photos/brochures up on my Flickr page here: across pages 2-5 ,and a bit about my own Dalesman project here: scroll down page a little. Good luck with your restoration!

[Peanut]

Loydee, on 25 January 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Good to see another Dalesman returning to action. If it's any help to you I've got a lot of Dalesman photos/brochures up on my Flickr page here: across pages 2-5 ,and a bit about my own Dalesman project here: scroll down page a little. Good luck with your restoration!

Thanks very much.
From the engine/reg number and original log book I can tell that this is an early bike, so I am a bit puzzled by the green frame shown in some photos. The log-book says that the colour is silver,black and that hasn't been altered since (Although the tank is orange). I wonder if the frame was swapped for a later hammer-finish silver frame or if some early ones were built in other colours. It all adds to the mystery. I wonder if Jim Lee's still alive? I met his grandson about ten years ago.I'll have to google him.
Thanks for the link to flkr.
Martin

[sparks2]

Hi
The early Dalesman production frames (1969) were nickel plated. Hence the colour silver in the logbook.
The plating deteriorates over the years and has probably been re-placed by a painted finish.
To the best of my knowledge Jim Lee died many years ago.
Is the second owner in the logbook a Mr Anthony Roberts?
Regards
Sparks

Edited by sparks2, 26 January 2012 - 09:33 PM.

[Peanut]

sparks2, on 26 January 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Hi
The early Dalesman production frames (1969) were nickel plated. Hence the colour silver in the logbook.
The plating deteriorates over the years and has probably been re-placed by a painted finish.
To the best of my knowledge Jim Lee died many years ago.
Is the second owner in the logbook a Mr Anthony Roberts?
Regards
Sparks

Hello!
Yes, it is, although I think it is written as Robert Anthony. there are two adresses so it looks as though he moved. Spooky that you should know that!

[kanur]

I have a Puch engined Dalsman Trials too that I have been working on. Here is a picture of the ad I bought it from. It's in pieces now slowly going back together.



Here are a few more Dalesman pics you may enjoy.

[Peanut]

kanur, on 27 January 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

I have a Puch engined Dalsman Trials too that I have been working on. Here is a picture of the ad I bought it from. It's in pieces now slowly going back together.



Here are a few more Dalesman pics you may enjoy.

Those are great pictures, thanks. It's always useful to see those little details as they should be, like the heat shields.Cheers.