30 replies to this topic

[chewy]

Here we go then; like many I am now counting off the days to the Scottish again. I.ve been participating in a conversation on f.Book regards splitting our sport into 2 ..the trick riders and the no stoppers...phew . During the course of this the issue of interpretation of the rules came up and the SSDT was used to highlight how trick riding rear wheel floating, even stopping with the footrest propping you up has been witnessed and how it should be should be interpreted.
As it happens I am nowadays one of the guys making these decisions 275 times a day for 6 days. What we see and interpret it as; is a large part of the equation to provide the results, we are not automatons and are well aware of what we do. Frequently it is a case of; you're damned if you do and you're dammned if you don't make a judgement so; can I invite either actual situations which you would have interpreted differently or possible scenario's and what you would mark them as. Please bear in mind that hitherto practically all observing decisions have been supported by the COC & then the stewards,and that the overiding imperitive is to be consistent ...this topic is intended as a straw poll /something to whet our appetites. The SSDT is a long long way from broken and certainly doesn't need to be mended so please lets just keep it as an exchange of views.

[2plus10]

Sorry, what was the question again

[Big John]

Simple...read the Supplimentary regulations of the SSDT, it's all written down in there.
Its a no-stop event (ACU - TSR22B) so a stop renders the rider 5 marks lost!

If you run over a marker or touch it or knock it out, run outside it - result...5!

Others are 0;1;2;3.....

Simple when you know how!

Big John

[petejohn]

Hi
I think most riders require observers to be consistant in their decisions, It is hard not to be more leanient to someone old, young, knackered, bike running crap, struggling ect. Then mark the top guys like your life depends on it.
All OBSERVERS wherever you are we do love you and appretiate what you do for us.
Pete

[Naichuff]

I have observed at the SSDT and the rider should get the benifit of the doubt.It is not easy to do in the wind rain and snow for hour on end and without at break If the club had continued the stopping rule the trial would not be running today as the entry fell below covering the cost of running it The late Willy Dalling went back to non stop now try get an entry you might be lucky

[chewy]

Big John, on 27 January 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Simple...read the Supplimentary regulations of the SSDT, it's all written down in there.
Its a no-stop event (ACU - TSR22B) so a stop renders the rider 5 marks lost!

If you run over a marker or touch it or knock it out, run outside it - result...5!

Others are 0;1;2;3.....

Simple when you know how!

Big John

Why not volunteer for the top sub of Pipers Burn this year John.

[Big John]

chewy, on 27 January 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

Why not volunteer for the top sub of Pipers Burn this year John.

What difference does it make which section an observer is on?

As far as I'm concerned it's very simple, I give what I see, if I'm in doubt, the rider gets the benefit!

I was absolutely gob-smacked last year at Aonach Mor when I stood and watched an observer three just about every rider when he should have been giving a five! One lad stoppped three times in the section and was almost on his side and the observer gave him a three. I didn't interfere, didn't speak to the bloke. I just watched what he was doing, that is not the way it should be.

Don't get me wrong, its a big task watching 275 riders all day in the piddling rain, I fully respect observers (done it myself plenty times, I know whats involved... but it must be done right!

Big John

[chewy]

Are you biting on my hook John.. one difference regarding where the section is.... onlookers . If your reference to done right is what I think it is then I agree that generally sections set out "Easier" and marked "Harder" would pre emt a lot of nonsense. there are some trick riding elements starting to emerge at the Scottish though which as you rightly say are OK provided the bike doesn't stop. That point seems to be where all the furore and argument regarding stop /no stop rules stems from. I hope we don't hear during radio interviews any references to harsh observing decisions or such cliches as are frequently printed. all best CW

[2plus10]

Big John, on 28 January 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

I was absolutely gob-smacked last year at Aonach Mor when I stood and watched an observer three just about every rider when he should have been giving a five! One lad stoppped three times in the section and was almost on his side and the observer gave him a three. I didn't interfere, didn't speak to the bloke. I just watched what he was doing, that is not the way it should be.

As long as he was being consistent with his marking there shouldn't be an issue......surely ?

Edited by 2plus10, 28 January 2012 - 09:49 AM.

[Woody]

2plus10, on 28 January 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

As long as he was being consistent with his marking there shouldn't be an issue......surely ?

Yes, because it's not consistent throughout the whole trial is it.

Rider A stops feet-up on one section and gets away with a clean, Rider B has a genuine clean. Rider B stops feet-up in another section and correctly gets penalised a five, Rider A has a genuine clean.

That's a 5 mark gap opened up instead of them still being level. If those two riders are challenging for the win, it makes a difference.

[Woody]

chewy, on 28 January 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

there are some trick riding elements starting to emerge at the Scottish though which as you rightly say are OK provided the bike doesn't stop. That point seems to be where all the furore and argument regarding stop /no stop rules stems from.

That has been going on for a long time in the SSDT and other no-stop nationals. You see a top rider coming up a rock strewn stream, they get off line and the front wheel sogs into a hole or comes up against a hidden rock under the water. The bike stops dead and the rider is momentarily tipped forward over the bars, but still feet up on the pegs. They recover very quickly and manage to jink the front wheel away from the rock/hole still feet up and carry on. Very skillfull but they lost control, got off line and stopped. It's a 5 but they get a clean.

Then Joe clubman comes up the section, makes the same mistake, bike stops dead. The rider doesn't have the same skill or fitness as the top rider. They hit the hole/rock, bike stops but a foot goes down as well. The effort to free the bike is more obvious and they get a 5 for stopping - correctly so.

But they get penalised, the better riders rarely do.

[Big John]

chewy, on 28 January 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Are you biting on my hook John.. one difference regarding where the section is.... onlookers . ....I hope we don't hear during radio interviews any references to harsh observing decisions or such cliches as are frequently printed. all best CW

The observing at any trial has nothing to do with "onlookers", they have absolutely nothing to do with the marking of a rider, that is down to the Clerk Of The Course's deputy - The Observer, it is what he/she sees that matters, not what onlookers think or what they perceive!

As far as I'm concerned, I personally never refer to observers and how they score riders at the SSDT during media broadcasts.

To respond to the matter of consistency, if a rider "stops" three times in a section and gets debited with a three mark penalty that is simply wrong, the observer isn't doing the job properly. It was so obviously wrong that day it was embarrasing to watch! Reason I kept my mouth shut was I was simply an "onlooker", it had nothing to do with me!

Big John

[Wonder Boy]

Big John, on 27 January 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Simple...read the Supplimentary regulations of the SSDT, it's all written down in there.
Its a no-stop event (ACU - TSR22B) so a stop renders the rider 5 marks lost!

If you run over a marker or touch it or knock it out, run outside it - result...5!

Others are 0;1;2;3.....

Simple when you know how!

Big John

Question for you John

- What if the rider dabs outside of the marker. Like you said if you run outside it is a 5 witI'vee bike, but i've heard....now let me repeat that forI'vee people... i've heard of observers giving people 5 because they have dabbed outside of the marked route with there feet or other parts of their body.

Whats your view on this

As for the Six Days its up to each observer what he marks you. But you would hope at the marks each person "firm but fair" for the whole of the trial.

[Woody]

Wonder Boy, on 28 January 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

Question for you John

- What if the rider dabs outside of the marker. Like you said if you run outside it is a 5 witI'vee bike, but i've heard....now let me repeat that forI'vee people... i've heard of observers giving people 5 because they have dabbed outside of the marked route with there feet or other parts of their body.

Incorrect - doesn't matter if your foot is outside of the section boundary.

[Big John]

Wonder Boy, on 28 January 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

Question for you John

- What if the rider dabs outside of the marker. Like you said if you run outside it is a 5 witI'vee bike, but i've heard....now let me repeat that forI'vee people... i've heard of observers giving people 5 because they have dabbed outside of the marked route with there feet or other parts of their body.

Whats your view on this

As for the Six Days its up to each observer what he marks you. But you would hope at the marks each person "firm but fair" for the whole of the trial.

You can dab or foot outwith the section or against a tree or wall that is physically outwith the markers and get debited one,two or three marks as appropriate, but if the bike goes outside the intended boundary of a section...its a five!

Big John