86 replies to this topic

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's.
Just thought I better post this into the right spot.

It is time to consider every option we have to get new blood into the sport.

And OTF has already said they have this type of class in the Peak Classic trials , so there is a start.
Anyway this is what I posted onto Pre 65. Just think about it.

Hi Guy's
Hi ElGringo.
What you have said in your piece, makes me think, that what a friend and I have been thinking, is probably one way forward to get more riders into the sport.CHEAPLY.
What we were considering was a "Trick-Shock" class, where the only stipulation for the bike being built would be. "A"] to use and air cooled engine of any origin. "B"] drum brakes, and "C"] two shocks on the back, any thing else would be what you have to hand or find kicking around.
Example. I have a New Chinese 230 engine sat in the back kitchen price £160, OKO carb £50. a CoTTOn
1967 trials frame which came with an engine, cost nothing, even has a good tank seat and rear shocks, a pair of wheels that I was give in the IOM. and a pair of MP forks that are not brilliant but were £30. £20 for a pair of plastic guards, a new chain and rear sprocket, and a bit of work, and you could be out for a grand mornings sport, for not a lot of dosh.
So "Trick-shock" what do you think???

Regards Charlie.

[totalshell]

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[totalshell]

no.

three central reasons.

1. although even rideable pre 65 bikes are not cheap and competitive bikes can be very expensive, it is still possible to have a competative ride on a 100% pre 65 bike if you choose your class and bike carefully ( yorks classic vintage two stroke classes in thier pre unit trials for 100% mechanically genuine pre 56 bikes) so a bike for a grand is possible and competitive.

2. genuine twinshock spanish italian japanese bikes are plentiful below your 'grand' self imposed minimum and are backed up by a growing number of niche and mainstream suppliers of reproduction spares to keep genuine trials bikes useable and competitive

3. your bitsa built from chinese fun bike and pre 65 spares bin with japanese front end is laudable but what about billy must win's swm motor in a t45 new built copy of a modified 240 frame with 38mm mazzochis billet yolks alloy tank and tubeless tyres that it will inevitably end up competing against..

[motomike]

Would this class of bikes ride in express trials ?

Forget it

[grahamjayzee]

Interesting, and I like your thinking.

I think the sentence to focus on here is 'gettng new blood into the sport' and therefore the main points to consider are how to inspire people, and how to avoid de-motivating them.

Cost may or may not be an issue, but a modern mono can be procurred and run for less than £1k without too much trouble. On my return to the sport I bought a 2001 rev3 (in 2009) for £725 and spent £200 making it trial ready. I spent not much on it after that and it was more than capable of topping the club route (maybe not with me on it!). The Trick-shock class may INSPIRE those that have a certain perception of a trials bike in their mind, but I can't see it being cheaper than a reasonable 1998 315r, for example.

Totalshell makes a valid point about where will it end. My idea is to simply remove any award and take away the emphasis from competitiveness. Back in the 90s, my club occasionally had a trail bike class on a dead easy route. The arguments could easily have been "what constitutes a trail bike?", but as it was for no award, what did it matter? As long as people had fun, they returned. Maybe a 'class win' causes a 20 mark handicap for the next trial, then the emphasis on topping the sheets is removed.

This then brings us to the trial itself. Around East Angular, the Dabbers club runs easy trials aimed at newbies and those that fancy a wobble around on whatever is in the garage. The trials are easy, but great fun and so well supported that they now impose a limit on entry. Certainly, the trial I rode had TWICE the entry of a more usual club trial. The trial is easy and therefore doesn't discourage newcomers, which certainly can happen on more challenging club trials. No-one really cares about the result, and that prevents people spending huge amounts on the bike, and therefore makes Charlie's suggestion a bit redundant. Of course, the class could easily be incorporated within this style of trial, but these types of bikes are already welcome.

I admire anyone who is actively thinking about how to get more people into the sport, but maybe the trial itslef is the place to start?

Graham

[bilc0]

totalshell, on 01 February 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

2. genuine twinshock spanish italian japanese bikes are plentiful below your 'grand'

A few years ago yes but this is fastly becoming not the case, A good trial ready twinshock are selling well beyond the grand now.

[guy53]

I think a few of you are missing the first point: the guy with an old running somewhat resembling a far cousin of a trial bike could go and try trial '' without '' spending less than a 1000 dollars euros or any other curency.

Guy

[monty_jon]

bilc0, on 01 February 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

A few years ago yes but this is fastly becoming not the case, A good trial ready twinshock are selling well beyond the grand now.

But what’s a grand worth now! (or what will it buy you in comparison to 2007)

Thanks to all the QE from the bank of England, which as done nothing to help the economy

[old trials fanatic]

Think it only appropriate to add why i have introduced a Trickshox class to our trials.

I have noticed, not yet at our club, nationwide that the Twinshock class is starting to go the same way that "pre65" went with people "modifying" their Twinshocks more and more to get them to perform more like a modern bike and quite a few, think John Bliss Cotswold et al, are becoming a quantum leap ahead of a typical Ossa, Bultaco, Montesa etc. Now i could have just as easily called it a Specials class and on our website under machine eligability it does refer to them as Specials or Trickshox. To be honest i dont care what you call them but what i do care about is that riders of fairly genuine Spanish Twinshocks are not dissadvantaged and end up butchering them too just to stay competitive. Now i know Charlie is coming from the "pre65", god how i hate that term, point of view but i have introduced the class solely as a class for bikes that do not conform to the machine eligability rules of our club. I dont want to turn anybody away but i dont want either to see us ending up with over modified super trick bikes that cost a fortune dissadvantaging the riders of more "period", another term i hate, machinery.

Lets be honest most "pre65" bikes nowadays are so tricked up and modified that they are realistically Twinshocks anyway and could compete on an equal level with and probably easily out perform a std Bultaco etc.

Also we have in the past detered owners of modified air cooled monos fitted with two shocks from entering, i still have my reservations, but they now have a class that they can compete in along with all the other bikes that dont fit the eligability criteria for British Bike or Twinshock.

For this year i have included the class which will ride the Expert route only as an experiment and we will see how it goes. Incidentally i have also put up a trophy for the best Pre unit over 300cc on our new Classic Intermediate and Classic Expert route to try and encourage some interest from owners of bigger machinery.

Lets put it this way is it fair that a Spanish twinshock fitted with tubeless tyres and rims, modern bike front end and loads of billet or a Fantic with a late reed valve motor and modern bike front end alloy swing arm laid down shocks etc can compete on equal terms with a "std" Ossa Bultaco etc? Personnaly i think not so that is why we now have a class for the more trick bikes be they British, Spanish, Italian, Japanese or just a bitza built in the shed.

Just take a look at the new elegability rules the Spanish have introduced for this year they are far more draconian that what we are proposing.

Come on guys be honest for once why did you fit a Sherco, Gas Gas, Beta whatever front end if it wasnt to gain an unfair advantage and dont tell me the tubeless tyres and rims are not there for the same reason too cos i dont and wont believe you. But this is now no problem as there is a class for you at our club so if you choose to ride your Trickshox as a Twinshock and somebody protests it then on your own head be it. After all you are still riding the same trials course just competing in another class.

The other reason for introducing the class was that i refuse to let mega trick bike dictate the severity of our trials, come on we have all seen it happen with more steps, drop offs, tighter and tighter turns etc, thereby affecting the less able riders who would then be put off riding. That is not what our club is about and is also the reason i have restricted the Trickshox to the Expert route.

Lets hope it's sucessful but at least we at Peak Classic are trying something new to keep the sport of Classic Trials alive here in the Derbyshire Peaks.

Just wanted to set the record straight.

Edited by Old trials fanatic, 01 February 2012 - 11:37 AM.

[jon v8]

I think - and its only MY opinion,that you can fiddle around with classes,argue about eligabilty etc forever.BUT Twinshock trials must surely be the cheapest form of motorsport by a country mile.So the first point is,what does anyone expect to spend ? I'm told that fishing or say clay shooting can cost thousands,wheras trials bikes are slowly going up in value.So if you dont like it after a few trials,chances are you will only lose the cost of the fuel to get there and the entry fee's.
My club,Bath Classic MCC does not have any awards,you can look at that two ways,first off it means there are no rows about using this or that on a particular bike.Secondly nobody much has ever moaned about no silverwork,a couple have suggested that a B route cup would encourage the novice riders to try harder.From a personal point of view I dont think it matters,I just like reading through the results and seeing who has beaten me or if I've trashed them.(And I think we all work out who we are similar to in terms of ability and judge ourselves against them - even if we never admit it.)
I think its ALL down to marking out - put on trials that people wont find intimidating,esp the novice or clubman route.And making sure that newcomers are welcomed and helped.We try our best make sure people are included,and join in the banter during the trial,cheer them when they have a good ride or help if they are struggling.A few gentle words of encouragment esp with machine prep,tyres too hard,cant get grip etc.
Nearly every trial we run I get returning or novice riders phoning and asking if they can ride and what they need to take part.Its very nice to be able to tell them how little they need,bike,helmet,boots and 12/£15 - its that simple.I ask them to come and find me on the day,getting there in plenty of time so they can have a look at the sections.Just remind them they can ask for a five if they dont want to attempt a particular section.
It seems to work,in the last couple of years there are several riders now turning up on a regular basis who are steadily improving - usually with a big smile on their face.

[grahamjayzee]

Jon, I think we align!

I can, however see OTF's point of view. This class is riding the EXPERT route and therefore the bike limits the severity of the sections and ensures that expert riders continue to be challenged without being killed off!

The may KEEP riders in the fold, but I suspect it won't bring many new ones in, as Charlie had hoped.

I can see value in ensuring an old Montesa etc is welcomed, but if that is owned by a newbie (usually because they are 'of a certain age' and the bike had some resonance with their youth, in my experience) then it is unlikely that the bike will be the limitting factor, as long as there is a route suitable for it and the rider. This comes back to the trial and how it is laid out again.

So, as I said, I'm with Jon!

Graham

[bilc0]

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[bilc0]

Monty_Jon, on 01 February 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

But what’s a grand worth now! (or what will it buy you in comparison to 2007)

Thanks to all the QE from the bank of England, which as done nothing to help the economy

If you go out today with a grand worth of notes in your pocket and your buying new stuff then your haggle power is up from what it was in 2007.
Thing is at the moment Retro is in fashion and anything genuine retro will demand the big bucks which people are prepared to pay.
If people want a trial ready bargain for £500 then buy an early mono but in 5 to 7 years there be demanding 1k + no matter what the pound is or is'nt worth and good twinshocks will be well into the 2k's.

[andy m]

Everyone has a point, I am with Jon on this. Golden Valley had around 100 riders on Sunday,numbers were down, some were at the Talmag. A good mix of Brits and T. shocks, a few eligible on monos.Their next trial is fully subscribed (March Hare road trial) They are busy as it stands so they don't need other classes to confuse things, although it's understandable why in other parts it's needed, maybe the numbers are down ??
At grass roots level which we are talking about the main thing will be keeping bums on seats and everyone happy, if silverware is introduced then you will get a few chasing it. Keep the silverware for the darts brigade surely.
As Jon has said before nothing seems broke down the South West so it don't need fixing.
Trials can be a cheap motor sport, £5/600 a/c mono, or you can spend, you pays your money as they say

[paul w]

[quote]BUT Twinshock trials must surely be the cheapest form of motorsport by a country mile[/quote
I must disagree with this. I recently saw an Aprilia climber change hands for £400. all in perfect working order, ready to trial. Ready to trial yes, but compete no. Its 20 years old this year, and its in the same class as 2012 Gasgas's. Given that 2 riders are the same ability, the Aprilia rider is disadvantaged by machinery.
Now consider a similar twin shock. In the same condition it would realise 3 times the ammount of the aprilia, and be competing against £3000 honda TLR's, re-manufactured Majesty's and some very nice fantics.
Now dont get me wrong, i will be going down that route myself soon, as i like to build bikes, but i accept that i will be spending 3 times the cost of an 03 sherco 290 on a bike that will ultimatley be "not as capable" but thats motor sport.
Road Racing see's this every season, they get round in by having a "one marque" series, CB500 honda's a cheap bike with a few tweaks and away you go, its the rider that counts.
I'm not suggesting that this would work in trials (be good though!) but its along these lines that we need to think.

[andy m]

Quote

Road Racing see's this every season, they get round in by having a "one marque" series, CB500 honda's a cheap bike with a few tweaks and away you go, its the rider that counts.
its along these lines that we need to think.

Now that reminds me.......

[paul w]

Ahhh.......RD250LC's..........many happy days in Louth general......."yes sir,i'm afraid its another broken collar bone"...."Oh Dear"