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Btc- No Stop


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#1 nigel dabster

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 12:57 PM

I think that if you look at the comments after the wallace re marking then someone needs to grasp the nettle and say what is and is not a 5 clearly, explain and if necessary during practice demonstrate this to the riders observers and officials, otherwise inconsistences event to event, observer to observer, will create a situation which far from helping the BTC will ruin it before no stop is given a chance to work or not.


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#2 phb

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 01:14 PM

its pretty clear as far as I can see in the rule book :blush: , if the front wheel stops moving its a five, the only problem is how the observer interprets it,

so no matter of showing them will make a jot of difference, all observers will score a section differently, some will favour 1 rider more than another so they will get away with a moments stop whilst others will not.

but one thing for sure all this moaning about observers is only going to serve that less and less volunteers turning up to offer their services. I for one have observerd at WTC, BTC and national level, but wont be every doing it again, with either constant crap from the riders or even the crowd being thrown at you, observing is a thankless task :angry:

we are all just going to have to face it the ACU and others have decided that the BTC and other events are going to be run under NON-STOP this year, so no amount of moaning etc will change it for this year,

Edited by PHB, 21 February 2012 - 01:15 PM.


#3 telecat

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 02:05 PM

Will you all stop using the definition of failure as being "The Front wheel stops Moving". That is not what is written in the Handbook. What is written and it is copied exactly is.


"(i) The machine ceases to move in a forward direction."

Nothing to do with the wheels. Both can be locked up and providing the Bike is moving FORWARD it is not a Failure.

Too many people here just have no idea WHAT the rules are.
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#4 motorcycleemptyness

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 02:23 PM

Unless the rules (whatever they are) are enforced correctly the championship (be it btc/S3 etc) will have little or no credability.

#5 grahamjayzee

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 02:23 PM

but one thing for sure all this moaning about observers is only going to serve that less and less volunteers turning up to offer their services. I for one have observerd at WTC, BTC and national level, but wont be every doing it again, with either constant crap from the riders or even the crowd being thrown at you, observing is a thankless task :angry:


My thoughts exactly. We have to leave the observers alone or we won't have any!

I think the 'trials community' needs to ensure we have a culture of respect similar to that seen towards Rugby referees. The observer's opinion, no matter what, is not to be questioned. Groans, swearing whilst riding off etc are all totally unacceptable in my mind. If we had a way of ensuring all riders took their turn with the clipboard from time to time, I'm sure they'd all realise this and trials Chi would be reset.

Graham

#6 pandelboy

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 02:30 PM

its funny how the s3 clubmans championship passed by peacefully last year as non stop, but this year because of the acu british championship going non stop its become a really hot topic. The Acu in my opinion should have just left the championship class stop permitted and perhaps made it slightly less daunting to encourage others into the class, that way the top lads then are still in line with europe and wtc to which they obviously aspire. the next class and all other trials national, and centre could remain non stop where the land then lent itself to this non stop marking if the club running the trial deemed it so. Telecat is correct everyone involved riders as well should understand their rule book, its there to help not just to hinder.

Edited by pandelboy, 21 February 2012 - 02:31 PM.


#7 phb

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 02:58 PM

Will you all stop using the definition of failure as being "The Front wheel stops Moving". That is not what is written in the Handbook. What is written and it is copied exactly is.


"(i) The machine ceases to move in a forward direction."

Nothing to do with the wheels. Both can be locked up and providing the Bike is moving FORWARD it is not a Failure.

Too many people here just have no idea WHAT the rules are.

I thinks you need to take a chill pill mate :D I know what the rule book says, and by saying the front wheel stops moving, be it rotating or sliding if it aint doing either its ceased forward movement so same think its a 5 just worded differently, :thumbup:

#8 nigel dabster

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 06:11 PM

My thoughts exactly. We have to leave the observers alone or we won't have any!

I think the 'trials community' needs to ensure we have a culture of respect similar to that seen towards Rugby referees. The observer's opinion, no matter what, is not to be questioned. Groans, swearing whilst riding off etc are all totally unacceptable in my mind. If we had a way of ensuring all riders took their turn with the clipboard from time to time, I'm sure they'd all realise this and trials Chi would be reset.

Graham


But this is the problem the observers will not be left alone if they are inconsistent, surely?
no one is saying they will all mark the same but surely this is only fair to the riders in a British championship event that we should try?

#9 old trials fanatic

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 07:28 PM

But this is the problem the observers will not be left alone if they are inconsistent, surely?
no one is saying they will all mark the same but surely this is only fair to the riders in a British championship event that we should try?

Nigel do you think every referee at every football match, rugby match, tennis tournament even snooker match are never inconsistent? Officials seem to be the most villified at every opportunity but without them there wouldnt be an event.

Are you saying this inconsistency has only suddenly appeared , possibly in even the same people, now events have returned to non stop?
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#10 suzuki250

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 07:39 PM

I’ve done more observing than riding, its easy to knock the observers but there seems to be very few riders who are willing to give it a go!

It would be nice if people put by there comments how many times they have observed?

Edited by Suzuki250, 21 February 2012 - 07:39 PM.



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#11 gizza5

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 07:59 PM

Don't mattter what the rules are observers will always make errors and 2 observers will never mark the same?
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#12 old trials fanatic

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 08:38 PM

Iíve done more observing than riding, its easy to knock the observers but there seems to be very few riders who are willing to give it a go!

It would be nice if people put by there comments how many times they have observed?

I end up observing every time we put a trial on as we can never get enough observers :popcorn:
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#13 nigel dabster

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:29 PM

Nigel do you think every referee at every football match, rugby match, tennis tournament even snooker match are never inconsistent? Officials seem to be the most villified at every opportunity but without them there wouldnt be an event.

Are you saying this inconsistency has only suddenly appeared , possibly in even the same people, now events have returned to non stop?


No I am not saying that inconsistency hasn't just (will?) appear, but the no stop rule requires a judgement call which seems very open to interpretation.
It is imperative that direction be given or else its a recipe for disaster imho because of all the reasons stated many times by others.

Perces video of 2011 BTC shows clearly bad judgement and marking of stop allowed where Dibs and others clearly go backwards. 5 for sure but the riders got away with it. With no stop it will be much harder if there are not guidelines set out beforehand, then naturally people will vary but at least someone is TRYING to get a level playing field and the arguments would be less?

I think no stop is daft to be enforced in the 6 BTC events but it needs to be given a proper chance and that can only be done with consistentcy surely.

We are not talking about every football match we are talking about 12 different (observers) referees at one event, big difference.

to me its just so obvious we need lots of support and thought devoted to the pinnacle championship, isn't it a desirable thing that arguments be reduced before they start and everyone knows a stop for nano is a 5?

#14 eddie_lejeune

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 07:08 PM

what standard is the S3 championship compared to the B class BTC

#15 old trials fanatic

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 07:38 PM

No I am not saying that inconsistency hasn't just (will?) appear, but the no stop rule requires a judgement call which seems very open to interpretation.
It is imperative that direction be given or else its a recipe for disaster imho because of all the reasons stated many times by others.

Perces video of 2011 BTC shows clearly bad judgement and marking of stop allowed where Dibs and others clearly go backwards. 5 for sure but the riders got away with it. With no stop it will be much harder if there are not guidelines set out beforehand, then naturally people will vary but at least someone is TRYING to get a level playing field and the arguments would be less?

I think no stop is daft to be enforced in the 6 BTC events but it needs to be given a proper chance and that can only be done with consistentcy surely.

We are not talking about every football match we are talking about 12 different (observers) referees at one event, big difference.

to me its just so obvious we need lots of support and thought devoted to the pinnacle championship, isn't it a desirable thing that arguments be reduced before they start and everyone knows a stop for nano is a 5?

You make some good points as usual Nigel.

Re the "stop for a nano is a 5" if my memory serves me well from uni if the stop was for less than a 50th of a second your eyes wouldnt register it so you could stop for a nano second and still not get a 5 lol . :chairfall:
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