kevin j Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 I have read the Beta clutch sticky, had already tried about everything there except the glue removal (which will be next when I get back to it) and wondering what else might work. -2003 Beta Rev 3. -Not a slipping problem, but a cold sticking AND a sticking when in operation. Does not fully release consistently, so tight section require some back brake, which is inconsistent. Either drags through and continues some forward motion, or the back brake unexpectedly frees the clutch and puts a sudden anchor to forward motion. -We are at least the third owner, have owned it about 7 years, with almost no use the last three years. Has enough use this year that I don't think storage is an issue. -Plates were in it when we bought it. Ridden for a couple years by middle son at expert club level, but not what I would expect to be abused or past useful life. -Friction plates are just slightly under the 'new' values of .105 thick. IIRC, they were about .100 to .105. Plates not obviously worn or glazed or damaged. Steel discs look very good, no heat or wear marks. -I have not specifically removed the glue between plates, but I don't recall there being unusual junk there. From the 'old days' I know that if the depth of the grooves in clutch plates gets too shallow, it will be sticky. So I was looking that over and nothing sticks out in my memory. That will be the next try when I get back to it. In the last year or so I have done the following: -Smoothed the tabs on all plates with file, both the outer tabs on aluminum friction discs and inner splines on steel discs. -Basket edges look pretty good, no significant wear spots. I did not file or disturb as I assumed it is anodized. -Noticed that the innermost friction plate does not bear solidly against the surface of the inner hub. The thickness of the outer tabs is such that the inboard face of the tab hits the inside of the basket before the friction surface makes solid contact with the metal of the driven center hub. The plates makes contact, just not what I would consider a solid connection when I push the plate inboard with my fingers and try to rotate the inner and outer hubs as though slipping the clutch. My thought is that there may be a VERY slight amount of deflection there, thus adding spring to the motion and not making a crisp disengagement. I was tempted to dremel off the inboard side of the tab (does not need to be precise, just to get some clearance) but decided not to experiment until I had other opinions. -Assembled with punched rounded edges to the outside (rounded edges presenting in the release direction), then tried to the inside. No real difference. -Shimmed the release bearing for the desired .016 to .024 inches. Was originally at about zero clearance (accumulated plate wear?). Tried at .010 and .020 travel before contact, thinking that running it tight would give very slightly more travel to the release. By the way, I bought a shim kit at Grainger, part number 3L739, $12.92, that is 1.00 OD, .625 ID (original shim was .592 ID, so very close), with 19 pieces ranging from .003 inches to .125 inches. Works well. I also tried slightly different ball between the push rods: original is .235 inches diameter, I tried .010-.015 under to get more clearance (because I had the ball in the bearing bin, but didn't have the shims yet). Went back to the stock ball. -I have tried the recommended 500 cc of 75w90 gear oil, too thick. Have tried 5w30 motor oil, 0-30 synthetic mobil 1, ATF ( a couple years back and I think it was too abrupt but still sticky). I have tried the blue GM AutoTrac fluid in other clutches, but not this Beta. I have tried 500 cc and 400 cc of oils. -Thoroughly bled the system, from bottom with syringe, from top with master cylinder, with MityVac pulling vaccum, upright or on its side, every way I could think of to remove air. Beyond the glue thing, which will be next, is there a 'real fix' with a slightly larger master cylinder? I know with the Gas Gas of a few years back there were common changeouts to about a .5mm larger master cylinder for similar issues. (I ended up getting a really cheap OEM cylinder to use on same son's older GG270 where it worked just fine.) tks, kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineaway Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 I have read the Beta clutch sticky, had already tried about everything there except the glue removal (which will be next when I get back to it) and wondering what else might work. -2003 Beta Rev 3. -Not a slipping problem, but a cold sticking AND a sticking when in operation. Does not fully release consistently, so tight section require some back brake, which is inconsistent. Either drags through and continues some forward motion, or the back brake unexpectedly frees the clutch and puts a sudden anchor to forward motion. -We are at least the third owner, have owned it about 7 years, with almost no use the last three years. Has enough use this year that I don't think storage is an issue. -Plates were in it when we bought it. Ridden for a couple years by middle son at expert club level, but not what I would expect to be abused or past useful life. -Friction plates are just slightly under the 'new' values of .105 thick. IIRC, they were about .100 to .105. Plates not obviously worn or glazed or damaged. Steel discs look very good, no heat or wear marks. -I have not specifically removed the glue between plates, but I don't recall there being unusual junk there. From the 'old days' I know that if the depth of the grooves in clutch plates gets too shallow, it will be sticky. So I was looking that over and nothing sticks out in my memory. That will be the next try when I get back to it. In the last year or so I have done the following: -Smoothed the tabs on all plates with file, both the outer tabs on aluminum friction discs and inner splines on steel discs. -Basket edges look pretty good, no significant wear spots. I did not file or disturb as I assumed it is anodized. -Noticed that the innermost friction plate does not bear solidly against the surface of the inner hub. The thickness of the outer tabs is such that the inboard face of the tab hits the inside of the basket before the friction surface makes solid contact with the metal of the driven center hub. The plates makes contact, just not what I would consider a solid connection when I push the plate inboard with my fingers and try to rotate the inner and outer hubs as though slipping the clutch. My thought is that there may be a VERY slight amount of deflection there, thus adding spring to the motion and not making a crisp disengagement. I was tempted to dremel off the inboard side of the tab (does not need to be precise, just to get some clearance) but decided not to experiment until I had other opinions. -Assembled with punched rounded edges to the outside (rounded edges presenting in the release direction), then tried to the inside. No real difference. -Shimmed the release bearing for the desired .016 to .024 inches. Was originally at about zero clearance (accumulated plate wear?). Tried at .010 and .020 travel before contact, thinking that running it tight would give very slightly more travel to the release. By the way, I bought a shim kit at Grainger, part number 3L739, $12.92, that is 1.00 OD, .625 ID (original shim was .592 ID, so very close), with 19 pieces ranging from .003 inches to .125 inches. Works well. I also tried slightly different ball between the push rods: original is .235 inches diameter, I tried .010-.015 under to get more clearance (because I had the ball in the bearing bin, but didn't have the shims yet). Went back to the stock ball. -I have tried the recommended 500 cc of 75w90 gear oil, too thick. Have tried 5w30 motor oil, 0-30 synthetic mobil 1, ATF ( a couple years back and I think it was too abrupt but still sticky). I have tried the blue GM AutoTrac fluid in other clutches, but not this Beta. I have tried 500 cc and 400 cc of oils. -Thoroughly bled the system, from bottom with syringe, from top with master cylinder, with MityVac pulling vaccum, upright or on its side, every way I could think of to remove air. Beyond the glue thing, which will be next, is there a 'real fix' with a slightly larger master cylinder? I know with the Gas Gas of a few years back there were common changeouts to about a .5mm larger master cylinder for similar issues. (I ended up getting a really cheap OEM cylinder to use on same son's older GG270 where it worked just fine.) tks, kevin Beta clutches have always stuck when cold. The 80 wt people talked about is light gear oil. You used hypoid gear oil designed for axles. Yes do the clean the glue from the plates. You already have the large M/C. It sounds like you have other hydraulic issues. Rebuild or replace the master cylinder. The next step would be the slave cylinder. I would replace it with the race model from Beta. A clutch like this is a dangerous way to ride. I have usually used atf or Maxima light gear oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lankydoug Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 The two things I have done to help this on my 97 Techno was use 15w40 Rotella motor oil (rated JASO) and remove the glue from the clutch friction plates. It took about 90% of the sticking out but will still stick if it hasn't been ridden in a while. I think it has more to do with the kind of friction material Beta uses. I works so smooth once you unstick it I don't mind, just be ready when you click it in gear for the first time of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htrdoug Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 The two things I have done to help this on my 97 Techno was use 15w40 Rotella motor oil (rated JASO) and remove the glue from the clutch friction plates. It took about 90% of the sticking out but will still stick if it hasn't been ridden in a while. I think it has more to do with the kind of friction material Beta uses. I works so smooth once you unstick it I don't mind, just be ready when you click it in gear for the first time of the day. Before you fire up your bike put it in 3rd gear and rock it back and forth(not too roughly) until the clutch breaks free,this stops the runaway moment plus has the added benefit of charging the cylinder with fuel so It'll fire on the first kick. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindie Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 I use Putoline NanoTrans and have had no issues at all clutch wise since using it. I did before when using light gear and ATF oil etc. I'm now a convert to this expensive but long lasting oil. Over a year it works out the same cost and you need to change it much less often. Occasionally I'll get slight sticking when first starting the bike and clicking into gear but I push off as a click into gear. It releases straightaway though and I can stop within 1m of pulling off. I dare say that if I gave the clutch lever a wiggle first I probably would not need to do it. I'd try another old school bleed very slowly with decent new fluid and then change to Nanotrans. Leave it in a month to work its magic and see if it improves? You change the nano when the slickness goes from gear changes - clutch action always still good though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Interesting to note far more comments / interest in this problem enjoyed by just about all Beta owners for the last (what)10 years than comments regarding the shiney new red 2013 model. Is there any way to get an elementery and necessary control sorted by Beta ? . Mine responds very well to new oil (just about any up to 30W) My missus's has remained perfect from new. I will try (having tried everthing else apart from black magic) Pindle's idea of Putoline nano trans (not least 'cause Putoline have put sponsorship money into the SSDT). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin j Posted August 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Just to clarify, the drag and pulling through the rear brake is just perceptible, enough to derail me mentally or take points, or cause an occasional stall or skidded wheel, Not like the clutch locks and launches me somewhere. Not directly a safety hazard, just a pain to ride this way. The glue removal will be next. I may also remove two springs, not to make it lighter but to have less pressure on the disc pack, just to try it. Since the hydraulic sideis volume and stroke, the springs only 'should' affect the final pressure needed to move the pressure plate, but if there is still air in the system that would change the compressesion of the air. Just as a test to try. I've bled and bled in so many ways, but will try again. Next winter may try a Surflex clutch pack. Is Putoline available in the US? 75w80 gear oil is a fairly light fluid, about SAE 10-20, but was still too thick. The gear oils have a different rating , they are not an extension of 10-20-30-40 etc. That would be about consistency of asphalt..... I'm old school, on most mc I have I habitually pull into highest g ear, clutch in, rock it to 'break the plates free', then back down to N and kick start. So already doing that. Yes, between being known for carb settings and sticking clutch, people don't know much about Beta around here. Was a very nice and tight machine when I got it. Great quality, expensive parts though. k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineaway Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) In your original post you said 75/90. Gear oils are usually just 70, 75 or 80. Brands are quite different though. I have had or have ridden most years of Beta`s in competition. From `89 to the present they all stick when cold. But all were consistant after being warm. If you took the time to change `when` the clutch works I would bet it is in the slave. I have done the `fix` on several bikes and it is well worth it as it is free. I do not believe it is an air problem, just leakin` enough to slow or stop full movement. Good luck as it is quite annoying. Have you had the slave apart and inspected for wear? They do make a rebuild for that also ,but that is why I suggested the up grade. Edited August 11, 2012 by lineaway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindie Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) I know it helps but if Beta wanted it to have less springs etc they would not make it have so many in the first place. I am sure nano won't work for everyone (cost or feel) but it is the very best oil for the application. I was an avid hater of Putoline as my old RGV 250 proddie bike seized up on their MX5 oil years ago. I swore I'd never use them again. They seem to know their onions on the strawberry 2t premix oil and this nano trans (GP spec) oil for transmissions. Try it once and if no good never bother again. 1 ltr is two changes worth and I seem to get three months use even if I'm riding a lot from one 500ml fill. I change it because I "feel" it going off but others may find it last longer. I used ATF in my GG 300 Raga and always had clutch issues. I wish I'd tried nano then (if it were available). The bike would still have been way better than me! Edited August 11, 2012 by pindie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan williams Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 You have to remove the glue in my experiance as I believe it is what causes the sticky. The edges of the tabs should be slightly radiused and polished. On the original bike I did the fix too (guinea pig1) I had a friend replace the main bearings (I didn't have the time) and he, being a Gas Gas dealer, stuck in ATF. The clutch is not working quite as good as before so I may have to crack it open and have a look. In my experiance ATF is not great in a Beta. Not sure about the hypoid gear oils as they are not really meant for a wet clutch if I remember trading friction characteristics for shear strength under load. Oh yeah one other note, too much oil in the gearbox will give you that creeping drag. Not sure why but I've heard it from some of the top mechanics and noticed it myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzralphy Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Remove the glue as per the instructions Use ATF oil Change the oil often That is as good as it will get.... put up with it from there on. Fret not......Smile and enjoy the bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindie Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 I'm not an ATF fan. All the issues I have ever had with gear boxes and clutchs seem to stem from ATF. I always use light gear oil and now am a nano trans convert. I'd rather pay more for the oil and keep out of the workshop to ride more rather than faffing around with files etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theflyingferret Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 It must be 5 or 6 weeks since I did the clutch fix on my 2000 270 Rev 3... - Radiused the Friction Plate Tab edges. - Roughed up the Slip Plate surfaces. - Cleaned off all the glue. - Left out 2 springs. - Re-filled with Dexron 3 ATF. I'm really happy with mine. It still sticks for a split second when I first select a gear but frees up without jumping forward too much or stalling. The Lever is nice and light with plenty of feel and I've not experienced any slipping yet. I changed the fluid again (same ATF) and it's actually gotten even better. You're getting quite a bit of conflicting advise mate, sorry about that...obviously different things are working well enough to satisfy different riders. Best of luck to you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan williams Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 OK so I don't like ATF but some do. I think the better riders who like a faster clutch are more fans of ATF. Then again there are so many types of ATF that I should probably avoid blanket statements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy_dave Posted June 7, 2013 Report Share Posted June 7, 2013 Sorry for reviving the dead but……………………. It doesn’t look like I can get Putoline NanoTrans in the states and I keep see conflicting opinions on ATF so I don’t know what to think there. Can some suggest a good gear oil for trials riding that can be found in the states? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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