old trials fanatic Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 But isnt this the sort of "section" that the no stop rule is trying to eliminate anyway? The reason there is all this "controversy" is because course setters dont seem to be able to grasp the simple concept that riding no stop requires different sections and a different skill set to riding stop allowed. If they bothered to set a trial correctly for no stop instead of being so tunnel visioned in the type of sections they lay out then it would be far safer and still take marks off riders. It not about my gonads are bigger than your gonads it's about balance control and finesse. Trials was and can be such a beautiful sport. Poetry in motion, man and machine in perfect harmony not bung it in 3rd, scream the nuts off it and dump the clutch. Ban the minders as well they only encourage stupid behaviour. If someone is prat enough to try "stuff" then thats their look out but not within the section markers. I keep hearing that "we have to take marks off them" well i agree you do have to have a winner but i see this at every trial if you lay a section out correctly for no stop the bouncing berk with the on off switch for a throttle has a 3 or a 5 while the guy with "control" , remember that one, rides through for a seemingly effortless clean. Again poetry in motion. You did say safety was your FIRST priority so why include ANY sections like this ? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 That's something I've wondered about since I got back into trials .... I NEVER saw Mick or Bernie , Marland etc. etc. with a minder telling them where to place a tire or pointing where to go ... Trials was you , your bike and the sections ! When did they start to need help to read and plan a section line ??? Glenn 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineaway Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 Glenn, the minders came along about the same time as the trucks and large motor homes. Now a days you have to have a parking lot as large as two or three football fields! Then you worry about finding sections! Kind of a catch 22. We are running out of land to use, but insist on making the events such a large promotion that limits the site locations. Years ago we could hold a national about anywhere. Now you have to accomodate 40 large rv`s plus the Teams for the pit. This years world rounds will be interesting to see if they can bring the magic back to the sections. I always laugh at the riders complain when there is no setup to an obstacle, They always call it old style if you don`t leave a place for the hoppers to get the bike just right befoer the next obstacle. More to trials than hop splatter and hop some more! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny042 Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 But isnt this the sort of "section" that the no stop rule is trying to eliminate anyway? The reason there is all this "controversy" is because course setters dont seem to be able to grasp the simple concept that riding no stop requires different sections and a different skill set to riding stop allowed. If they bothered to set a trial correctly for no stop instead of being so tunnel visioned in the type of sections they lay out then it would be far safer and still take marks off riders. It not about my gonads are bigger than your gonads it's about balance control and finesse. Trials was and can be such a beautiful sport. Poetry in motion, man and machine in perfect harmony not bung it in 3rd, scream the nuts off it and dump the clutch. Ban the minders as well they only encourage stupid behaviour. If someone is prat enough to try "stuff" then thats their look out but not within the section markers. I keep hearing that "we have to take marks off them" well i agree you do have to have a winner but i see this at every trial if you lay a section out correctly for no stop the bouncing berk with the on off switch for a throttle has a 3 or a 5 while the guy with "control" , remember that one, rides through for a seemingly effortless clean. Again poetry in motion. You did say safety was your FIRST priority so why include ANY sections like this ? Some good points here..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramit Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) this will give a better shot, this is Keith at our club trial at Turkey Rock, im scoring the bottom of this section,..think he would make that No Stop Perhaps under the No Stop Rule, lines like these would no longer seem reasonable....so hopefully would not be sections. Throw in a few of those cambers and those boys wouldn't need their footpegs. (Nice ride though) Edited January 25, 2013 by kramit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1shy Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 though i agree....if your club hosts a NATC national event, it will be abserving the rules set by NATC or at least should be, it make it easier for the checkers to score during the Nationals. the No stop wont effect the way i ride, as i try and ride that way anyway. however, i am our club and the ITSA clubs EMT for events on public land.. and id rather have em ride out. then pack em out any day. the only real issue i have with No Stop is rider safety, if you have Pro level riders in your club, youv seen the crazy stuff they can ride, and most of the crazy stuff needs to be set up for, like Adam says, younger riders will hurry through it, and make mistakes..a 20 foot drop is a big mistake, with a 160LB motorcycle following you to the ground. in the past 3 years, iv delt with 2 femure fractures, a hip fracture, and a bee sting reaction, and non were advanced riders,. one of the Smage bothers broke his foot last year, i was a section ahead of him, and by the time i got back to that section he was being taken out on an ATV with help of the other EMT.. rider safety is the first thing on my mind, having fun is second...winning is way down the list.. NO Stop is No Beuno.... Hosted a few Nationals Chuck and except the fact those events have to be run to stated rules, but I think if more traditional safer sections become the norm at club level given time top level would change too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) OTF brings up a point I remember well and still try to emulate today... When I was a little kid , maybe 12 or 13 on a brand new silver and blue TL125 watching Don Sweet compete in Neta events , I was always amazed at how smooth he was ... Over the nastiest no-stop sections his head would be steady as a rock and yet his ty would move 2 or 3 feet up and down or left to right . It was such a beautiful and graceful thing to watch . And he would hardly ever touch his clutch ... Poetry in motion Mick was world champ and Bernie was kicking a$$ out in Cali.... Glenn Edited January 25, 2013 by axulsuv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny042 Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 Perhaps under the No Stop Rule, lines like these would no longer seem reasonable....so hopefully would not be sections. Throw in a few of those cambers and those boys wouldn't need their footpegs. (Nice ride though) Yeah nice ride, and a wild section but if you told him to ride it no-stop he would try. And so would the rest of the Pros, and 2 or 3 of them would get through it clean. That's where I fail to see what is going to change, really. It's going to be "almost-stop" downhill from the bigger steps, but a modern bike with a good rider will still go up stuff just as big, just with less setup time and no way to recover from mistakes. Hmm..... maybe THAT's the point? But they will still put the trigger ifr they've had time to aim or not. Or maybe the manufacturers WANT there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckindenver Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 lets be real,,,no stop was how it was done, until about 1985,,things changed, bikes got better, skills improved, and the sections have been set towards that.. so, rather then just jump on a vintage bike, and ride no stop,..we force the younger riders to step back? time limits in section, and stop with a penalty would work better, keep it safe, and let them ride the big stuff.. No stop is a step back.... as i said, this rule wont effect my style of riding, i ride 2 levels below Keith, but it will effect, rider turn out, checker turn out, and spectator turn out. in the long run a select few that dont and wont ever ride at that level thought this was a great idea to level the playing field, selll more bikes or whatever...rather then let those who ride it make the choice.. if they want to ride no stop...ride a twin shocker and be happy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 Chuck, you are right on... could not agree more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramit Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) lets be real,,,no stop was how it was done, until about 1985,,things changed, bikes got better, skills improved, and the sections have been set towards that.. so, rather then just jump on a vintage bike, and ride no stop,..we force the younger riders to step back? time limits in section, and stop with a penalty would work better, keep it safe, and let them ride the big stuff.. No stop is a step back.... as i said, this rule wont effect my style of riding, i ride 2 levels below Keith, but it will effect, rider turn out, checker turn out, and spectator turn out. in the long run a select few that dont and wont ever ride at that level thought this was a great idea to level the playing field, selll more bikes or whatever...rather then let those who ride it make the choice.. if they want to ride no stop...ride a twin shocker and be happy. I would say most riders ride no stop anyway ( other than the EX/PROS) because they suck at stop and balance/hop.......I think lower level riders scores and skill level will improve when forced to ride No Stop. I think a 5 for a stop rather than a one will be a problem. No doubt about it......rider participation and spectator turnouts were much greater in the past..... but why......I am not sure. Edited January 25, 2013 by kramit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 No doubt about it......rider participation and spectator turnouts were much greater in the past..... but why......I am not sure. Could it possibly be that then it was more aspirational in that anybody watching could think "perhaps i could do that with a bit of practice" plus the spectators came because they felt they were watching something they could "communicate" with even appreciate the artistry involved.Now it's become a freak show practised by the outrageously gifted or just plain stupid. The artistry has gone to be replaced by the same ethos borne out by Evil Kinevil and look how that played out. No stop is about giving trials back to the masses. I can understand some who grew up on the playstation and the X games throwing their toys out the pram and at every opportunity but unless Trials gets back to basics and enguages the man or woman in the street then it's going to die. As i said before get rid of the minders ban the catchers and if they still want to ride as in the video let them do it, lets face it nobodys going to stop them, elsewhere. Something had to be done and nobody else has put forward a workable alternative that took into account trying to make trials a mass participation sport again like it used to be. Who cares what the few can or want to do it's about getting trials back to the general public and getting them involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 (edited) Firstly this is an American's point of view on MotoTrials in America. (Europe may be different) Let's face it in this current day and age of SPEED AND BIG SPECTACULAR, Trials is well just boring to the average spectator. Yes our top guys have BIG steps that they do, but it is still boring for the spectator after watching 2 riders ride the same step. The following is what my wonderful wife told me when I had her watching a trials video "I saw him do that already" Me:"No honey that was Dude #1 this is Dude #4, see how the two riders place their front tire in two different spots, 3 inches apart, before trying the step" Her:"Nope, all looks the same" If we go to NO-Stop and introduce speed and big steps then spectators are going to wonder why is there only 1 rider in there at a time, make it interesting and put in 10-15. Oh never mind, I will just go watch Endurocross or Extreme Enduro or MX. Regular trials is just not "Extreme" enough to get the attention of the majority of younger riders. And most of the spectators don't want to wander around the woods all day to watch it. Where do most spectators watch motorcycle events? TV for outdoors stuff and stadiums for indoor stuff. Where they can sit and be entertained. For participation: No-Stop or Stop allowed makes no difference in trying to convert anyone. Most riders of other motorcycle sports look at Pro trials riders and say "Wow that was cool but I will not be able to ride that big of a step, and the lower classes look so easy by comparison that what would be the point? Besides that I am over 21 and don't want to have my ass handed to me by a 9 year old kid in the Novice class. I am gonna go ride some off- road trails, MX or Enduro." Is there $$$$ paid out to the top 3 in other motorcycle sports at the club/amateur level? That will influence many to stay with that sport also. Also our bikes look funny and basically can only be used for 1 thing. A club level/amateur that is riding for fun on an MX bike even set up for MX can be run effectively in the trails with your buddies on Sat. and Raced on Sun. Or you can take your MX bike and run it in a midweek MX then on Sat. do a Hare and Hound and on Sun run an Endurocross. (I know each race has different suspension needs if you want to place in top 3 consistently but I am talking about Joe Average that wants to dabble in as much riding as he can because he likes to ride. (Basically what the majority of club level trials riders would be that we need to increase our participation) Trials always was and always will be 1 rider, 1 bike against the terrain. There is a certain mentality of individual that understands trials as being about control and is just "off" enough to enjoy the sport. We need to reach more of them. I think some of the push for No-Stop is because some of the aging riders still want to be in a class with a cool name for the upper skill levels like they rode "in the good old days" Ya know Champ, Expert, Advanced, whatever your clubs top 2 classes are called, and they don't like being called Intermediate or Novice etc.... You can ride whichever style you want No-Stop, or stop-hop. I try to ride using both styles when that part of the section calls for it. (Albeit not really great at it) I agree with chuckindenver (I am starting to get worried now) that stop with penalty is a good compromise between the two. As I understand Stop with Penalty is: Stop and balance=0, Stop with foot down = 5. This will allow the balancers to do so and set up, but will also force the balancers to get better at controlling the bike or risk a 5, It will also encourage other riders to not stop when they know they will be putting a foot down and thus be similar to No-Stop. Just my Opinions, On Edit: OH Crap that was rather long winded, if you made it this far I thank you for being interested enough in what I had to say to read it to the end. If you just skipped to the bottom to read this, then to you I say Edited January 26, 2013 by zippy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outlaw dave Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 Very good opinions by Old Trials Fanatic and Zippy - I agree 100% that Trials should not be all about hitting a rock wall in 3rd etc - the No Stop rule, while not my choice, even though that's the way we all did it back in the day,- can work, if the Organizer gets it right. - I suggest some of the people who say it can't be done on modern bikes - check out the video of Takumi Narita in 1994 - 90% of what he did way back then was No Stop. - The top riders can and will adapt to the change, and make it look easy. - But only if the Organizer knows what he or they are doing. - If rule changes encourage more people to try our sport, then I think it's worth consideration. - For the record, up here in the frozen North, the WTC will stick with the old stop allowed rule for 2013. - But then again, we don't have a World Round in our schedule, and a lot of our sections can be ridden no-stop anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin belair Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 but if the members can go home after a day or weekend and say "I had a good time with my mates" isn't that all that matters. Good point John. Watch this video and see how many no stop moves you can find. I see a beautiful No Stop move @ 00:47. Another beautiful floater turn @ 2:12. another @ 2:57 another @ 3:10 http://www.photobysergio.fr/team-montesa.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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