hario Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 Hi all, Im hoping for a little advice on the clutch in a gasgas pampera 250 i recently bought. When first going over the bike before riding it i had some issues getting the clutch system bled correctly and took the clutch cover off to check it was actuating well, and found the inside clutch cover was being eaten away by the bolts on the clutch basket: I took the plates out too, to look for any metal remains but they seem fine. I did notice that the plates were arranged oddly though; there were two fibre plates together at the end of the stack, plus the bottom plate (fibre one side, steel the other) was arranged fibre on fibre, with the steel facing the back of the basket. I rearanged the plates in a standard order, flipped the bottom plate over and put the others all fibre to steel. However on the pamps maiden trail ride the clutch seems to slip and generally be a bit gutless. The bike seems to jump into nuetral too, but that might be my big feet catching the lever. Is my reangement of the clutch plates a possible cause for the slippage? I refilled the bike with Motul Transoil 10w30 (650ml) which should be fine? I was thinking the cover damage might simply be down to the PO using the wrong bolt size? do these look right: GasGas apparently don't supply the bolts and washers anymore :/ Any advice on how to proceed with this would be very gratefully recieved! Thanks, Hario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirdabalot Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 Sounds like you corrected the clutch plate arrangement. Wonder if the clutch assembly been fitted to its shaft correctly or has come loose in the past allowing contact with the cover. Regarding clutch slip, find out if plate thickness and spring lengths are still within spec. But first check lever free play and that there is play between the clutch slave cylinder and clutch pushrod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hario Posted May 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 I think my springs and fibre plates are in spec, but i did look at the clutch about a fortnight ago so i might recheck to be sure. I can't find a figure for the total pack height, despite them showing it being measured in the manual I'm certain the lever free-play is good, as i spent an age bleeding the clutch and chasing air bubbles out of the lines, but i had no idea there needed to be play between the slave and pushrod, how do you set that up? i assumed it would sort itself out like a brake piston. I did inspect the pushrod and check the ball bearing was still in there, so i may have upset something then. The only thing the PO mentioned about the bikes' history was that he fitted a new clutch slave after a thrown chain killed his last one, so he may have set things up wrong also, perhaps that even caused the clutch cover damage. While im in there i will look at the clutch basket and check it doesn't have any free play, and perhaps remove and refit it just to be sure. As i have a shiney new cover i will try to test fit that and see if it seems to contact those bolts. As a side note, i bought some dexron 2 to try in the engine, is that stuff ok in the older GG engines? most info i see is for the pro models. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirdabalot Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 I had a Pampera new in 2005. There was no manual adjustment for the clutch pushrod, but I found that the top hat bush that the clutch pressure plate radial bearing sits on, had oil between it and the pushrod, creating the effect of the pushrod being too long, which held the clutch plate to lift resulting in slip. I know, I couldn't have made it happen if I wanted to. The cure was to drill a small hole through the end of the bush or grind a groove along the pushrod to allow the oil to escape. Also ensure the master cylinder is not too full and can breath through the cap above its diaphragm. Then try pressing the top hat bush back to compress the slave cylinder, it should compress, returning the oil to the master cylinder. If it doesn't compress check the slave cylinder. Pumping the clutch lever should then jack the pushrod back out, go steady as it may push the piston out of the slave cylinder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazybond700 Posted May 3, 2015 Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 (edited) I know displacing the clutch plates is a used trick to use the plates a bit longer when they slip... Also for those old engines 10w40 does seem to work right. also http://mypage.direct.ca/b/billyd/ggman.pdf Edited May 3, 2015 by crazybond700 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hario Posted May 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 I found that the top hat bush that the clutch pressure plate radial bearing sits on, had oil between it and the pushrod, creating the effect of the pushrod being too long Thanks for the tip, is the top hat bush you're referring too the one in the center of the clutch basket, visible in the second pic of my original post? I know displacing the clutch plates is a used trick to use the plates a bit longer when they slip... Also for those old engines 10w40 does seem to work right. also http://mypage.direct.ca/b/billyd/ggman.pdf I thought i saw something along those lines mentioned somewhere, this clutch is probably just worn out then. Thanks for the link, that's great info to have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totalshell Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 the marks on the clutch cover inner are where the bolt heads have impacted.. this obviuosly happened whilst the engine was stopped otherwise youd have grooves not clear head impressions.. probabbly done by over tightening with no gasket or been dropped whilst stood.. you sound to have the plates in a n better order now. pamps are fairly tough but parts are scarce.. moto merlin used to run one and bought all my spares engines etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canada280i Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 the marks on the clutch cover inner are where the bolt heads have impacted.. this obviuosly happened whilst the engine was stopped otherwise youd have grooves not clear head impressions.. probabbly done by over tightening with no gasket or been dropped whilst stood.. you sound to have the plates in a n better order now. pamps are fairly tough but parts are scarce.. moto merlin used to run one and bought all my spares engines etc etc. The impressions are just casting marks, the circular thing is what was worn by the bolt heads, if you look closely you can see some of the part number is missing because it was worn away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_earle Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 The center clutch hub nut may have come loose at some point and allowed the clutch to move towards and rub the casing in the past? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hario Posted May 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 The center clutch hub nut may have come loose at some point and allowed the clutch to move towards and rub the casing in the past? I think you might be right, unfortunately i didn't think to check the hub for any freeplay when i was in there. It must be either the basket wandering out or the bolts being taller that stock. Of course its possible that this problem occurred earlier in the bikes life, and has already been sorted but without replacing the damaged cover. That gouge is very deep though, its nearly through the case completely. Thanks for your thoughts on this, I will let you all know what it turns out to be. I think I have everything i need to fix it now, except the time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hario Posted May 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) Thought i would post an update on this.... Being a bit of a bike maintenance looney, i decided to change the water pump seal for good measure, and found the water pump gear looked like this: So i guess that hasn't done its job for a while :/ Not surprisingly i also found a nice aluminium paste, presumably the product of the clutches impromptu machining of the clutch cover: So i guess im now looking at an engine rebuild, just to clean out the ally residue if nothing else :S Am i being a bit overboard? perhaps i should just replace the water pump gear and bearing? This strikes me as a pretty simple engine to strip and rebuild, but im a little concerned about the cost of all the parts from GG, does anyone of a maker of a complete gasket kit for this engine? Also, is there anything to look out for, particularly given that it should have been overheating? Thanks! Edited May 10, 2015 by hario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazybond700 Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 If it overheated it would have droped cool liqued out of the overflow hose. So probably you found it soon enough. I would replace pump, clean everything you can see, put new oil on, ride a bit, and replace oil again. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hario Posted May 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 the coolant level seemed fine when i drained it, so i guess it didn't boil. I really haven't ridden it much myself, so hopefully the previous owner didn't ride it in this condition too much either. I think i will replace the gear, as you suggest, and see how it behaves. I may end up selling the pampera before too long anyhow, in order to finance a true trials bike, so i don't want to spend a ton of money i won't get back. Having said that, Im also not going to sell on a bike im not confident is 100% reliable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted May 11, 2015 Report Share Posted May 11, 2015 set the clutch sort water pump check fans fine and im sure she'll be good to go. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hario Posted May 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2015 The fan at least works as it should! I ordered the parts for the pump today, so should get the engine back together later this week. Hopefully that will be the end of it. As for the aluminum paste in the engine, i think i will try running dexron II, buy a big cheap container of it and change it after every decent ride for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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