4stroke Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 It works in some classes of car racing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 Hi, The regs need a simple first clause: "Any machine entered for this event should be available for sale, in the state in which it is ridden, to any bidder for £1500 in the Finish area of the trial." Then nobody would waste a fortune on trick alloy bits, etc., etc. A bit conservative when a standard TLR Honda costs a minimum £2k.... I've just rebuilt a 1970 Sherpa, no fancy bits, just a straightforward rebuild, no trick alloy bits. Only concession to modern components is a tubeless back rim. Not even electronic ignition. The bike cost me £600. It needed a full engine rebuild which these days is around £500 (pistons are £150, rod kits are £150 plus rebore and crank assembly costs, all new bearings, gaskets, seals - another £120 on top of this if cylinder needs relining) Cost of bike plus full engine rebuild - £1150 so far Then new bars, wheel builds, cables, levers, tyres, frame powder coat and some polishing and re-chroming - another £500 Increases overall cost to £1650 Petrol tank repaired, lined and painted, new seat unit as original too butchered - another £200 Increases overall cost to £1850 These costs are pretty generic to most bikes if rebuilt fully. Yes a few quid can be saved by not indulging in painting / polish / re-chrome and using second hand levers / bars / tyres and not rebuilding wheels if they are solid enough, but you're still looking at around £8 - £900 for a mechanical rebuild to get it fit for use in a trial plus the cost of the bike and you can't get many bikes for £600 now no matter what condition they're in Compulsory purchase at £1500 over my dead body... I suspect you wouldn't have many entries at a trial with that in the rule book 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breagh Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 Aye your right I've this standard 340 Bultaco costing me about £2k and it;s still a bag of spanners probably needs about another £500 to make it rideable. Surely a simple rule is all machines should be as standard as resonably practical? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon v8 Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 A bit conservative when a standard TLR Honda costs a minimum £2k.... I've just rebuilt a 1970 Sherpa, no fancy bits, just a straightforward rebuild, no trick alloy bits. Only concession to modern components is a tubeless back rim. Not even electronic ignition. The bike cost me £600. It needed a full engine rebuild which these days is around £500 (pistons are £150, rod kits are £150 plus rebore and crank assembly costs, all new bearings, gaskets, seals - another £120 on top of this if cylinder needs relining) Cost of bike plus full engine rebuild - £1150 so far Then new bars, wheel builds, cables, levers, tyres, frame powder coat and some polishing and re-chroming - another £500 Increases overall cost to £1650 Petrol tank repaired, lined and painted, new seat unit as original too butchered - another £200 Increases overall cost to £1850 These costs are pretty generic to most bikes if rebuilt fully. Yes a few quid can be saved by not indulging in painting / polish / re-chrome and using second hand levers / bars / tyres and not rebuilding wheels if they are solid enough, but you're still looking at around £8 - £900 for a mechanical rebuild to get it fit for use in a trial plus the cost of the bike and you can't get many bikes for £600 now no matter what condition they're in Compulsory purchase at £1500 over my dead body... I suspect you wouldn't have many entries at a trial with that in the rule book Its even worse if you look at building an Ariel or AJS etc, its even more costly. There is no way I would sell my AJS - even for £10,000,which it clearly isn't worth - because of all the time and effort it takes to get a bike to run like it. You can sell time - but you cant buy it.... It all comes back to sensible sections to suit the bikes and riders. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 Its even worse if you look at building an Ariel or AJS etc, its even more costly. There is no way I would sell my AJS - even for £10,000,which it clearly isn't worth - because of all the time and effort it takes to get a bike to run like it. You can sell time - but you cant buy it.... It all comes back to sensible sections to suit the bikes and riders. Totally agree. Any trial with a ruling like that would have no entries at all well other than people turning up with a heap of #### hoping to sell it on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4stroke Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 So which of my bikes has suffered the most depreciation due to recent events, AJS or Gasgas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie prescott Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 Hi Guy's. Deryk. I built the "Otter-On-The-Cheap" in 2010, just to prove how cheap you could build a "Brit Twin Shock" machine. This came out to about £2000. so I would say that this plus a couple of hundred £'s now is the minimum, you can expect for a competitive build to cost. But this is a lot less than the eight to ten grand being banded about for a "Trick-Shock" British??????? bike. Dave's "Bultaco" builds are on the "Otter" site, so you can see how much work were put into there builds there, and take a look at the OOTC build. Regards Charlie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Hi, As ever, much querying of the value of the limiting price - little comment on the merit of the principle - we were considering the £1500 limit years ago, so maybe £2500 would be a sensible current level. But the real problem, I believe, is in the sections themselves. The Pre-65 Scottish is a poor example as far as eligibility of machines is concerned - but then look at the sections - all natural, no daft kinks up and around a tree, etc. Then remember it was won by James Noble with a loss of 4 marks on a relatively standard old Ariel - not a fiddle framed Villiers with power valves and Yamasuzi front forks, designed and manufactured in the 1990s - twenty years after they were eligible........... What is more, because the reason for creating the event - which has now run successfully for thirty years - was to retain a trial where machines manufactured before 1965 could still be ridden in the sections, the sections remain 'as they were' before 1965 - and that means just one route, rideable by ALL the classes in the competition.............. Edited June 30, 2015 by laird387 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monty_jon Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Then remember it was won by James Noble with a loss of 4 marks on a relatively standard old Ariel - not a fiddle framed Villiers with power valves and Yamasuzi front forks, designed and manufactured in the 1990s - twenty years after they were eligible........... and I bet he would sell that Ariel for £2500 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collyolly Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 When I insured my Ariel last year my insurer queried my valuation until I listed the parts required to replicate the build at £8000 excluding labour, it is no wonder new blood is not coming into the sport on the heavyweights. I must point out that I did not pay that much for it 8 years ago but the right parts are now scarce, I do not really understand the issue about using later Spanish or Jap parts when you can build a 'legal' bike out of so called replica parts made in 2015 ! How many HT5 or Matchless bikes came with alloy rims, alloy hubs/brakes etc etc it is a ever ending race to make the bikes better for harder sections, this will of course now continue into twin shocks and then mono's. Everyone talks about the 'the trial that cannot be named up North' with rose coloured glasses, yes there is scrutineering but it is a joke, lots of bikes look nothing like the pre 65 originals and no one has the balls to object. Show me a bike that is ridden with foot rests in the original position, yes rests,not ultra grippy ultra light pegs made yesterday and in a position to enable modern sections to be ridden. It may seem minor but as soon as the simple deviation of changing the riding position was allowed the sport changed and we have to accept that. You now have modern grippy tires being used with modern styled sections and wonder why the older riders on 'original' bikes stay away. Sorry to have covered more than one topic but it all adds up to the fact that the sport has moved on and we have to just enjoy riding what we can not necessarily for any awards but the sheer thrill of beating the modern bikes ! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Everyone talks about the 'the trial that cannot be named up North' with rose coloured glasses, yes there is scrutineering but it is a joke, lots of bikes look nothing like the pre 65 originals and no one has the balls to object. So the pre 65 Scottish scrutineers have to "police" the entire pre 65 movement ? 80% of the entry are only seen up here once a year, over to you and your big balls 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon v8 Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Spud - sorry to say but you are the one who has it wrong. I spent the last 5 years running Bath Classic, promising to do all I could to promote the use of older rigid and pre unit bikes.Listening to the owners of these bikes and almost begging riders at other events to come along and join us. What I promised was sections that would not frighten the riders or wreck their bikes. It worked,we got good,repeat entries.There were no awards,just a fun day out where people could turn up and enjoy themselves. Even though I am no longer organising trials,( For now ) I still ask riders where they are from and what events they ride. The vast majority of them just want a day out where they and their bikes can get around without hospital visits. Most are over 50 - or retired and have a finite amount to spend on trials,( Mainly the cost of getting there) so will pick and choose events. make it too hard and they just don't come back. Sensible sections, well promoted and the riders will come back, talk of making them offer their bikes for sale if they do well and they will stay away - it really is that simple. The real debate is the loss of land because of Defra stewardship, I've mentioned it before and nobody listens, offers ideas or says anything much really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collyolly Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 O.K. I did not mean to infere that it was the responsibility of the Pre 65 Scottish organisers to control the sport but that particular trial has over the years become the benchmark for building bikes for this class. The acceptance of parts made last week and in fact many 2015 Dots, James and Bantam complete bikes now being used in the pre 65 scene are a direct result of people bending the rules to be more competitive. Scotland is the only trial that I have competed in with the scrutineering stage, it is a lot of work for the organisers and without pointing fingers it still allows bikes to be ridden that are far from pre 65 in appearance let alone build and this sets the standard for the rest of the sport. So my apologies if I have ruffled feathers but we have to accept the sport has now changed and many riders from 10 an 20 years ago riding classic bikes are now 10 / 20 years older and no longer able to get round the sections and the bikes are too expensive to attract younger riders in. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon v8 Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Sorry for what Spud ? If there are riders going around on clean then the organisers need to look at the riders and bikes they are attracting - and TALK to them... Unless you have absolutely useless land experienced course setters can mark out sections with multiple routes to suit ALL abilities and bikes.Sorting out the quite frankly bloody stupid Miller rules would help too. It can be done,recently Somerton Classic MCC ran their annual 2 day British trial, and very successfully catered for bikes from a 1929 rigid girder Ariel right up to the 2015 James type machine. Everyone had a great time and nobody on the A route finished the weekend clean,yet all the well respected riders were there. So it can happen, Golden Valley Classic run their Gerry Holdstock trophy/Eurocup trial this weekend - you can be sure of a similar situation there. What you need is experienced people running the club who cater properly for their members. Other factors are also at play,older riders are giving up,younger riders have family commitments etc and cant always ride/help. There are simply loads of leisure activities clawing at peoples spare time now, making it even more important to get the sections right,keep them fresh,not always using the same old routes etc. Even giving venues a rest for a while if you are lucky enough to have plenty of choice,which again brings me back to loss of land due to Defra - say it once again,"It is the real issue." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 What percentage of British bikes do not have a post 65 modification ? Be it tyres, shocks, ignition, bars, alloy rims .............. Virtually none, so a handicap system is an option, whether based on age of bike, rider, success - or a combination. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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