4stroke Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Just a thought, how does Sam's original Ariel compare to modern versions? Have the machines moved on so much that even GOV132 would now struggle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizza5 Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Money spent and weight saved on a modern pre 65 they are oceans apart 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornishtwinspring Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Bet sam would like to build another with todays materials and tech. wouldn't better the legend that is gov tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collyolly Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 It's not just the bike, it is the change in sections as well. Modern pre65 bikes are easily as competitive as twin shocks as they have been forced to ride the same sections, it really is a viscous circle of bike development and then sections to take marks off the modernised bikes being ridden by riders using 'modern' techniques. Show me a picture of a period rider with fingers on the clutch, in fact show me a picture of Martin Lampkin or Malcolm Rathmel riding like that ! Can't comment on the ease of Sammys bike to ride but you won't get away from the fact that he was the main factor in that partnership, it's more about the rider than the bike. If you think otherwise there is a winning Ariel on flea bay at the moment so if you think it's the bike go and buy that and clean both days of the pre 65 Scottish because that bikes already done it ( with an Ace on board ) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 It wasn't GOV that was so special - Sam was beaten on it by other riders of current bikes even back during the day - but I don't recall him being beaten very often by other Ariels........partly due to Sam, of course, but mainly due to the cam in the motor. (I know I've ridden many Ariels and I've ridden GOV - it was unique in its power delivery and control). As collyolly says the difference in the day that made pre-65 necessary was the virtually instant tightening of the sections, with impossible turns you couldn't even push an old British bike round, let alone ride it - and I don't see anything that has changed - except that it has got worse - so now you have people building a competitive twinshock trials bike, with British looking motor externals and calling it pre-65.........but if they are happy to spend their fortune and enjoy themselves, good luck to them, leave them to get on with it. I will happily forecast the next swell will be to a back to basics movement, with minimal cash involvement. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornishtwinspring Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 It's not just the bike, it is the change in sections as well. Modern pre65 bikes are easily as competitive as twin shocks as they have been forced to ride the same sections, it really is a viscous circle of bike development and then sections to take marks off the modernised bikes being ridden by riders using 'modern' techniques. Show me a picture of a period rider with fingers on the clutch, in fact show me a picture of Martin Lampkin or Malcolm Rathmel riding like that ! Can't comment on the ease of Sammys bike to ride but you won't get away from the fact that he was the main factor in that partnership, it's more about the rider than the bike. If you think otherwise there is a winning Ariel on flea bay at the moment so if you think it's the bike go and buy that and clean both days of the pre 65 Scottish because that bikes already done it ( with an Ace on board ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornishtwinspring Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 No doubt the pilot the difference between :them & us: but the bkes definitely make the gap even bigger,blagged a quick go on rathmells 348 in the day and believe me it was a totally different steed to my stock bike... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon v8 Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 It wasn't GOV that was so special - Sam was beaten on it by other riders of current bikes even back during the day - but I don't recall him being beaten very often by other Ariels........partly due to Sam, of course, but mainly due to the cam in the motor. (I know I've ridden many Ariels and I've ridden GOV - it was unique in its power delivery and control). As collyolly says the difference in the day that made pre-65 necessary was the virtually instant tightening of the sections, with impossible turns you couldn't even push an old British bike round, let alone ride it - and I don't see anything that has changed - except that it has got worse - so now you have people building a competitive twinshock trials bike, with British looking motor externals and calling it pre-65.........but if they are happy to spend their fortune and enjoy themselves, good luck to them, leave them to get on with it. I will happily forecast the next swell will be to a back to basics movement, with minimal cash involvement. I think thats wishful thinking on your part Deryk - its not going to happen,two reasons,the parts even if rusty and worn out are massively expensive compared to 20 years ago.Secondly the people who would have been happy to ride such a bike are now looking to Bantams and the like because most if not all of them are too old,(Or think/feel they are) to ride a Pre unit.Riding an Ariel like the last one I had was a nightmare in todays P65 sections,too long,too heavy and the motor although lovely was a handicap too. Today's Ariels are all less than 52" wheelbase,often 50". They mostly run shortstroke 500 motors,an 86/87mm piston and a 350 crank.The engine is an inch shorter for a start.They pick up quicker and shut down quicker too.The fiddle forks and modern rear shocks are a world away from Sam's bike.An all up weight of 200 lb is easy to get down to now - less than a TY250 Yamaha as standard... The Kia Twinshock series is about as far as its going to go with a series for "Old" bikes,there are still plenty of twinshock bikes around for sensible money that are plenty good enough. I think Pre65 will decline in the coming years,the true enthusiasts all all getting to old,and there simply aren't enough younger people who are interested in building and maintaining old bikes. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 (edited) Hi jon, The other factor that the youngsters just don't understand is that two of the most useful controls on the old bikes were the ignition advance/retard lever, and the decompressor, to ease a heavy old bike into a steep downhill you approach the lip of the hill in bottom gear, pull it back to full retard as soon as the front wheel goes over the edge, touch of decompressor to keep it moving, then gravity pulled you down the hill and the motor on retard gave you steady rear wheel braking to the bottom where you eased the ignition to more advance ready for the rest of the section and if it was a slippery climb you eased into second gear and when you felt grip going, settled further rearward and eased back towards retard to soften the power impulses that were braking traction.......a factor I learned watching Hugh Viney over the years. Just can't happen with people who fit daft electronic ignitions and still call it pre-65............. Edited November 21, 2015 by laird387 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon v8 Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 The trouble is Deryk everything has moved on. Last year I fitted a new BTH electronic mag to my rigid AJS,and there is no way I'd bother going back to a Lucas racing mag.(There are 2 of them under my bed...) I can only say it has transformed the engine,it means the plug actually lasts,rather than needing constant cleaning or replacement.The built in digital advance means I can start it by hand,so easy its like falling out of bed. This is important to me as my right knee is in a pickle,one kick back and I limp for weeks,or suffer from lack of sleep because I can't get it comfy.(Its getting hard to find decent quality components to make them reliable to the standard we need - irrespective of who builds them) The truth is hardly anyone has points ignition on 4 stroke bikes now,and the regs for the Talmag banning electronic ignition is quite frankly a joke,the late Len Hutty clearly was using the same BTH electronic mag as me,and those that have a Lucas or Bth original mag fitted mostly have Interspan guts in them or an Electrex world unit fitted in the primary chaincase. I'm not saying its right,just how it is,all the Cubs and C15/B40's lost their points 20 years ago,while folk were having a moan about their Keihin carbs from CB125's. I think we need to be thankful that there are still people willing to keep ANY Pre unit bikes in use,most hide in sheds or are polished at shows.All we can do is to keep the sections sensible,where finding grip is more important than lock to lock turns or leaping over stupidly high steps.Certainly a few of the sections of last weekends Downland Trophy did not bear rigid bikes in mind whilst the marking out was done... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 Jon, My trouble is I am an electronics engineer - brought up in the hard school of providing reliable electronics in vehicles like civil aeroplanes, underground trains, police motorcycles, search and rescue helicopters, etc., I was also taught early on how to correctly service magnetos - so I did my own - and I NEVER had to retire in any trial, in more years riding old British fourstrokes than I care to remember, as a result of ignition problems. However I do realise the world is now a fit and forget place - and when that doesn't work - just get a new one. I wholeheartedly agree everything has changed so much it can never be the same as I knew it - but I can also see that they have long since drifted away from the ideal - but it's their world, not mine, so let them enjoy themselves. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 Ideal - Existing only in the mind, imaginary. Lacking practicality or possibility of realization. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttspud Posted November 23, 2015 Report Share Posted November 23, 2015 (edited) Hi Deryk, I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments. I was also taught early on how to correctly service magnetos - so I did my own - and I NEVER had to retire in any trial, Our bikes still have magnetos, and have never had an issue in a pre65 trial with them although they do need maintaining. But, my brother and I have both been put out of modern events with modern electronic ignition breaking completely. One I remember, an immaculately maintained beta, blew through more than one electonic ignition in a matter of months, and they do not come cheap and they are not repairable. Going back to the original debate about GOV132, now that bike is a special, was always a special (as has been pointed out) and even back then was a big advantage over original pre65 bikes. Today, that bike is still an advantage over the proper pre65 bikes which some people still ride, yes 300lb and so on. I still ride one, I am young and I am very happy to do what needs to be done to maintain it and I have no problem with riding such a heavy machine, or a slow engine, or a wide seat, or a long bike, or poor suspension, as long as it is not being ridden against cheat bikes which have nothing left of pre65 in them. Today's Ariels are all less than 52" wheelbase,often 50". They mostly run shortstroke 500 motors,an 86/87mm piston and a 350 crank.The engine is an inch shorter for a start.They pick up quicker and shut down quicker too.The fiddle forks and modern rear shocks are a world away from Sam's bike.An all up weight of 200 lb is easy to get down to now - less than a TY250 Yamaha as standard... Now that is the truth. Too many people not just bending the rules but ignoring them completely, effectively there are no rules. Anything goes. That Ariel on ebay is an absolute joke. It may as well be a Gas Gas or Yamaha. That is why you don't see many proper pre65 bikes, it is nearly impossible to have fun when you are so disadvantaged against 'modern' bikes with some courses becoming difficult to dangerous for 300lb bikes designed for 200lb bikes and competitive twinshocks for all but the best originals riders. I think Pre65 will decline in the coming years,the true enthusiasts all all getting to old,and there simply aren't enough younger people who are interested in building and maintaining old bikes. What do you expect? You yourself are riding a modified bike yet expect others to accept every disadvantage you are forcing upon them? Or do you expect them to modify their bikes too and hence remove another 'true enthusiast' as you put it, from the sport? You either want a sport with pre65 bikes, or you do as is being done and modify your bike in the same class and watch them leave. No, the truth is that some people in the sport seem to have put winning above anything else, will do anything to win, at any cost to anyone else, with no regard for anyone else, at any cost to their bank balance, with no regard to people watching or to the sport's future, probably started with the series following Deryk's original immensely succeful series.. that following series without rules began the decline which you see in the almost completely removal of original pre65 bikes today, all except for the Talmag. and the regs for the Talmag banning electronic ignition is quite frankly a joke,the late Len Hutty clearly was using the same BTH electronic mag as me, No, they have done exactly the right thing. And it is no joke. Len Huttys bike was quite heavily modified compared to an original, though it did look immaculate. I will happily forecast the next swell will be to a back to basics movement, with minimal cash involvement. Yes, that is absolutely correct. I don't want me or others to have to be forced to spend up to ten thousand pounds to develop a cheat bike of no manufacturer if they want to enter this sport.. just a mass of one-off parts to be replaced next year.. and actually each expensive new part worth precisely zero to anyone else without precisely the same cheat bike. Not a very attractive proposition for anyone sporting a brain. What I want to see is pre65 bikes ridden by riders who respect the sport, organisers who have a set of rules that allow them to support pre65 bikes to be ridden on courses set outfor pre65 bikes, with those that wish to ride specials being included but identified as such and catered for within the rules. For those that wish to continue forever moving pre65 to 'modern', how far do you want to see the developments go? Introduce mono-shocks? Disk brakes? Hydraulic brakes and clutch(probably already here!)?... Why bother? Just buy a modern bike and leave pre65 alone so that others can enjoy pre65 as pre65 not pre65 come anything goes. No, Deryk is right, things are going to need to begin again, with rules and bikes that people can understand and a sport that people can enjoy again and believe in again. All the best, TTSpud Edited November 23, 2015 by ttspud 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallo Posted November 23, 2015 Report Share Posted November 23, 2015 The legend with a box standard Ariel, just as it came out of the factory. A DVD or Blu-Ray of Sammy riding it is also available, a fantastic Christmas present for all Pre 65 fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornishtwinspring Posted November 23, 2015 Report Share Posted November 23, 2015 Box standard ????????????? Very new box. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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