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Ethanol And Other Additives In Fuel


dadof2
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I Suggested cleaning out the fuel tank on hrmad's 4RT poor running post. In stead of posting again on their I think it is worth starting a separate topic.

Dependant on your location / country ethanol may have been in your fuel for some time. The detrimental effects of ethanol are now becoming apparent. 

A few key points

Fuel containing ethanol can deteriorate significantly within 15 days

Ethanol absorbs up to 50 times more water (from the air) than petrol

Ethanol has a much lower energy output (calorific value) than petrol

Ethanol attacks plastics and some metals used in fuel systems.

In 2T premix the lubricating oil only binds to the petrol, not the ethanol. If left standing the ethanol settles out and you will be running your engine on near straight ethanol with no lubricant until the tank gets a good shaking.

 

So far I have seen damage (that did not occur before ethanol) on vehicles / motorcycles made in Japan, Spain and the UK

 

It is an unfortunate fact that fuels (both CI and SI fuels) containing constituents not derived from mineral oils do cause damage to fuel systems and engines. Motor and component manufacturers are fully aware of this but can't openly criticise fuel companies or say you should not use them because the fuel as it leaves the pump does meet the legal specification. To advise against the use of a fuel that meets the specification could leave the vehicle manufacturer open to very costly litigation.

 

Several motor clubs are lobbying their MPs (members of parliament) in an attempt to get the ethanol content of fuel stated on petrol pumps and to ensure that a supply of ethanol free fuel remains available.

 

At the present time it seems the only ethanol free pump fuel in the UK is BP Ultimate bought outside the Southwest of England.

 

I have already written to my MP regarding the above and will be writing again, I hope others do the same.

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Ethanol has actually been mixed into fuel for a lot longer than we imagine - for decades. It was what engines were originally run on before petrol in the 1800s. Following the discovery of petrol, fuel switched between petrol and ethanol for some time, the one in favour at any given time being dictated by tax levy or politics. In the very early 1900s they were looking to ethanol as the fuel of the future due to its cleaner burning and higher octane properties. Race cars used ethanol rather than petrol for better performance. It was regularly used as an octane booster for anti-knock in petrol right through the 1900s. Supermarket fuel uses it is an octane booster now.

 

It makes you wonder if ethanol really is the culprit of problems seen now, but if so, makes you wonder even more why it has only recently become one, given the technology available now as opposed to decades ago with no apparent or reported problems.

 

I use V Power and so far, no issues with anything

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Hi , it was destroying the plastic tank on my ty175 so I drained it out recently cleansed out tank and used Causewells re liner, stripped and cleaned carb new fuel pipe and tap filters and put in 4star leaded, what a difference it has made. O/K tiss more than double the cost of unleaded but I won't be using a lot of this 4 star leaded , also I am now going to do the same on my other bike, I did here that plans were ahead to increase ethanol in petrol,

Cheers .

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I am wondering if it is possible to remove the ethanol from petrol?  

For instance, would it settle out in a column, due to their different viscosities?  

What about if you added water to the fuel first, so that it binds to the ethanol?  Then would the ethanol/water part of the fuel settle out in a column?

Could you absorb or filter the ethanol out of petrol - carbon filter or some other method?

There is a garage in (I think) Bridgewater which still sells 4 star.  Would this fuel contain ethanol?  Would it still go "off" in 15 days?

 

PS:  I have just Googled "removing ethanol from petrol" and have found many links, such as this one =

 

http://www.ehow.com/how_7830109_remove-ethanol-gasoline.html

 

Could be worth investigating further.

 

Edited by stpauls
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Most branded Super Unleaded contains very small amounts of ethanol anyway, so I use that

3 out of my 5 bikes are EFI now and the road bikes are left for 6 months over winter with no special treatment - key just turned off

Come Spring - they are started up & just ridden off, no dramas & have been using the same practice on those EFI models since 1995 with no ill effects & are just serviced to the manufacturer's schedule

Same with the 4RT - washed and parked up, sometimes for a month

My other 2 bikes are carb and after every ride I turn off the petrol tap & let them run until they stall - again no dramas with either petrol in plastic or metal tanks

I cut the lawns this week, with my Honda mower which has been stood with petrol - 95 unleaded since last October in the carb

Started 3rd pull and ran perfectly

I think the ethanol thing is a myth which is overblown

Edited by johnnyboxer
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Ethanol for all it's faults is attempting to push back the date when we have to really think hard about using oil as a fuel. Ethanol will never replace oil unless we all fancy starving to death and as far as I can work out, ethanol is virtually 1 energy in to produce 1 energy out, not a great economic plan. I always used Avgas in my Beta's, mixed 50/50 with high octane petrol, bikes ran sweet.

 

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It makes you wonder if ethanol really is the culprit of problems seen now, but if so, makes you wonder even more why it has only recently become one, given the technology available now as opposed to decades ago with no apparent or reported problems.

I use V Power and so far, no issues with anything

It hasn't just become a problem. See those alloy Bultaco tanks, they were used because legislation was brought in outlawing non- metal tanks on motorcycles in the UK. This was brought about by the effects of ethanol on glass fibre tanks commonly fitted to cafe racers allegedly resulting in weakness that caused fires in a crash.

Who knows how much of a problem it really was but once the press got their teeth in to it with "ton up fireball" type headlines something was done about it.

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We had problems with normal petrol, changed to German petrol from brand X, advised by our oil suplier, no more problems.

 

It might be a little bit of topic, but also a bit a question on the answer of Johny boxer. Do people have (good) expierences with fuel stabelizers or cleaners, especially with the idea to put in a system for some longer time while standing still (like my road ''project'' bike)?

Edited by crazybond700
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It hasn't just become a problem. See those alloy Bultaco tanks, they were used because legislation was brought in outlawing non- metal tanks on motorcycles in the UK. This was brought about by the effects of ethanol on glass fibre tanks commonly fitted to cafe racers allegedly resulting in weakness that caused fires in a crash.

Who knows how much of a problem it really was but once the press got their teeth in to it with "ton up fireball" type headlines something was done about it.

 

But we never saw the effect on tanks back then as people have experienced now. I've seen an Ariel fibreglass tank that was turned to jelly inside. We never saw that happen to any of the fibreglass tanks back then, the worst we got was crazing and maybe leaks due to some of them being poorly made, but I never saw or heard of any melting as the Ariel tank did. And trials bikes had fibreglass tanks in the 60s with no issues and ethanol seems to have been present throughout that period too.

 

Similarly we didn't see problems with petrol pipe, rubber seals or other components that people are reporting as being affected now. I use Shell V Power and fortuitously or otherwise haven't experienced any of these types of issues, and it reputedly has up to 5% ethanol in it. I've also started a bike that has had the petrol left in the tank for nearly two years and it took a few kicks to run and ran with no issues afterwards, so not sure where the idea fuel goes off after 15 days comes from. The period between it being refined and finally getting into the fuel tanks of our cars could be longer than that...

 

If they could run cars on pure ethanol 100 years ago without it attacking rubber components, gaskets, seals, etc, there should be no reason why in this age of superior technology and understanding it should present today's industry with the types of problems being reported - you'd think. Which is why it makes me think there is more to it than ethanol.

 

But I'm not a chemist so I don't know, just what I think based upon the history of using ethanol more than a century ago and as an additive all through the last one

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I am wondering if it is possible to remove the ethanol from petrol?  

For instance, would it settle out in a column, due to their different viscosities?  

What about if you added water to the fuel first, so that it binds to the ethanol?  Then would the ethanol/water part of the fuel settle out in a column?

Could you absorb or filter the ethanol out of petrol - carbon filter or some other method?

There is a garage in (I think) Bridgewater which still sells 4 star.  Would this fuel contain ethanol?  Would it still go "off" in 15 days?

 

PS:  I have just Googled "removing ethanol from petrol" and have found many links, such as this one =

 

http://www.ehow.com/how_7830109_remove-ethanol-gasoline.html

 

Could be worth investigating further.

 

There are supposedly ways of doing it but don't forget it's used as an octane booster so if it's removed the octane rating is reduced

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But we never saw the effect on tanks back then as people have experienced now. I've seen an Ariel fibreglass tank that was turned to jelly inside. We never saw that happen to any of the fibreglass tanks back then, the worst we got was crazing and maybe leaks due to some of them being poorly made, but I never saw or heard of any melting as the Ariel tank did. And trials bikes had fibreglass tanks in the 60s with no issues and ethanol seems to have been present throughout that period too.

Similarly we didn't see problems with petrol pipe, rubber seals or other components that people are reporting as being affected now. I use Shell V Power and fortuitously or otherwise haven't experienced any of these types of issues, and it reputedly has up to 5% ethanol in it. I've also started a bike that has had the petrol left in the tank for nearly two years and it took a few kicks to run and ran with no issues afterwards, so not sure where the idea fuel goes off after 15 days comes from. The period between it being refined and finally getting into the fuel tanks of our cars could be longer than that...

If they could run cars on pure ethanol 100 years ago without it attacking rubber components, gaskets, seals, etc, there should be no reason why in this age of superior technology and understanding it should present today's industry with the types of problems being reported - you'd think. Which is why it makes me think there is more to it than

I don't know if many ran their trials bikes on Cleveland Discol which seemed to be the main culprit but I don't know how the percentage compares with the new stuff.

But you are right, it should not be beyond the wit of man to produce ethanol proof fuel systems on vehicles.

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