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unresolved design flaws


kurt
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Each time I maintain my trial motor I notice how some parts take a lot of extra time to clean or need early replacement. I use my GG 2007 as an example here, but newer models and also other makes are suffering the same issues. I'm sure other riders will have similar issues. It looks like that the manufactures are more concerned about the colour scheme of their next model than trying to handle these bad designs. I know this is delicate subject but I couldn't resist to ask for opinions.

1. airbox: very important to keep clean, but very time-consuming to do. What a joke is this 'valve' at the bottom? And the 2 studs inside that cover the screws of it? All these corners, the pole inside, inaccessible areas,.... makes it almost impossible to clean. The metal airfilter holder is not leakfree, just like the cover with the benji seal. And this transparent flap covering the filter, just because the top cover is leaky.... How hard can it be to make airbox leak free, accessible and easy to clean?

2. carb intake: for cleaning the airbox, I found best practice taking of the rear fender assy. But putting it back is a tricky job. It is not easy to get rubber hose completely over the carb inlet and at the same time keeping the 4 spring-nuts in place. 

3 rear fender:  why is it fixed with screws? One flip-over and the fender is broken. Why not using a sort of clip-on system? Some makes recently start to use a very soft, bendable fender now.

4 kick start: after some years it bends and/or brakes. And what about the fixing on the shaft? The bolt from the kick itselfs, sits in the way to get the fixing completely to the shaft with as result that the bolt on the shaft comes loose now and then. Not to mention the oil leak at the shaft itself.

5 rear linkage system after some years it is almost impossible to get it free of play, even with new parts.

Some other issues are already taken care of, like the waterpump problems, fan, rear rim without spoke holes,... but I find it hard to believe that these design flaws, as I call them, still are there.

 

airbox1.JPG

airbox2.JPG

intake.JPG

rearfender.JPG

kick1.JPG

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 Actually the Gasser is easy to work on. You have not even touched on the real faults. After taking a second look, are you missing the kick starter bushing. That washer should not be used. part  MT280226068 And the leak just needs the seal seated or a new seal.

Edited by lineaway
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I certainly wont single out Gas Gas for any criticism but I would make a more general point.

Owning and running a Trials bike requires a fair degree of meckanical know how.

This isn't good as it's a big barrier to people taking up the sport.

It's all right for us that have grown up with bikes but put yourself in a new guys shoes.

 

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the gasgas is much easier to maintain than say a sherco ..(example)   i'v just bought myself a 2013 txt pro ( 2nd owner)  and cant fault the design of the bike it is a great piece of engineering compared to other bikes i have owned. 

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Vertigo, Sherco and Ossa fixed the Airbox problem. To say I never do much in the airbox is an understatement on the Vertigo. The trouble is it requires re-mounting of the fuel tank to do it. Hence Sherco running away at speed once they could sell a bike without it. Fuel Injection fixes the other Airbox mounting problem as well. The rest is down to weight and expense. Nobody will pay for a better solution or a solution that adds weight,

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I like my Gasser but wouldn't change it because of these niggles. So just a few things here referring to the original post you may like to consider, try or ignore!

I've used plastic bolts (number plate type) to hold the rear mudguard on and they break off and save the mudguard (successfully tested many times)

Used different seal strips on the airbox lid though improved but not found perfect one. (still experimenting).

Warm the rubber boot to soften it attach to the rear of the carb before attaching the carb to the forward inlet boot, you will wonder why you never did this way before it is much easier.

Never broken a kickstart but when I found out how much they are I got a 2nd hand one in new con for a spare very cheap.

Linkage bearings will always have some play in em as like all bearings need clearance for lubrication and to act like a bearing. It is much more noticeable because of the number of bearings and length of the swing arm magnify's this.

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8 hours ago, breagh said:

I certainly wont single out Gas Gas for any criticism but I would make a more general point.

Owning and running a Trials bike requires a fair degree of meckanical know how.

This isn't good as it's a big barrier to people taking up the sport.

It's all right for us that have grown up with bikes but put yourself in a new guys shoes.

 

Electric Motion solves that problem to a large extent.

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Agree with the original poster. I am pretty sure Miller, Lampkin, Rathmell etc did all or most of their own routine maintenance and repairs when they were works / development riders. Not the case today, with support teams, minders, lots of mechanics etc. If top riders still had to fettle their own bikes, often a long way from support vans its a fair bet they would put more priority on making them reliable and easy to fix.

I was thinking of posing the following in the trials bike evolution thread but will put it here. Its not just bikes that are affected by this "form over function" trend. Car headlight units or bulbs used to be cheap and easy to replace. List price for a headlight unit for my previous car was about £85 but i could get an identical pattern unit for under £30. My new car is same make / model name but has those fancy wrap round headlights. Light output is no better (actually slightly worse) and they are a fortune to replace (over £250 so I am told by a colleague who had to replace one). The new ones are made of plastic so go dull whereas the previous ones were glass which in normal use lasted the life of the car.

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On 07/01/2017 at 11:46 PM, kurt said:

Each time I maintain my trial motor I notice how some parts take a lot of extra time to clean or need early replacement. I use my GG 2007 as an example here, but newer models and also other makes are suffering the same issues. I'm sure other riders will have similar issues. It looks like that the manufactures are more concerned about the colour scheme of their next model than trying to handle these bad designs. I know this is delicate subject but I couldn't resist to ask for opinions.

1. airbox: very important to keep clean, but very time-consuming to do. What a joke is this 'valve' at the bottom? And the 2 studs inside that cover the screws of it? All these corners, the pole inside, inaccessible areas,.... makes it almost impossible to clean. The metal airfilter holder is not leakfree, just like the cover with the benji seal. And this transparent flap covering the filter, just because the top cover is leaky.... How hard can it be to make airbox leak free, accessible and easy to clean?

2. carb intake: for cleaning the airbox, I found best practice taking of the rear fender assy. But putting it back is a tricky job. It is not easy to get rubber hose completely over the carb inlet and at the same time keeping the 4 spring-nuts in place. 

3 rear fender:  why is it fixed with screws? One flip-over and the fender is broken. Why not using a sort of clip-on system? Some makes recently start to use a very soft, bendable fender now.

4 kick start: after some years it bends and/or brakes. And what about the fixing on the shaft? The bolt from the kick itselfs, sits in the way to get the fixing completely to the shaft with as result that the bolt on the shaft comes loose now and then. Not to mention the oil leak at the shaft itself.

5 rear linkage system after some years it is almost impossible to get it free of play, even with new parts.

Some other issues are already taken care of, like the waterpump problems, fan, rear rim without spoke holes,... but I find it hard to believe that these design flaws, as I call them, still are there.

 

1 Why are you getting so much dirt in your airbox? Do you pressure wash? Do you block air box before washing with a sponge/or something?

2Its not easy but if done slowly with the jubilee clip slack its not hard to do. Make sure the rubber is aligned and ease on then worry about clips when in position. Dont forget to slacken the intake rubber clip as this can help wiggle carb to get airbox in. Once refined its a 30 sec job, honestly.

3 most change the rear fender screws for automotive plastic trim clips.

4 never had a kickstart go or bend, but your bike is ten years old?

5 Agreed. But most makes the same.See answer above.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 i sealed the lid with grease as its water proof and did the job, also put a sponge in the bottom stop mud coming up through the flap if in muddy conditions.

2 Try a Beta on same year n you will be happy with Gasser.

3 Plastic bolts as said.

4 Kick starts are ok if used correctly. I had 2007 300 and didnt start it correctly or set carb up. After damaging kickstart paw n idle gear then case i sought advise and never had any issues.

5 Buy a Beta 99-2008 they are linkless with direct shock mounted.

Your bike is 10 years old and given the nature of the sport it is expected components will fail. Bikes years ago were terrible compared to today`s bikes as i remember them been easier to work on but constantly having issues. My TY175 would have points or condenser issues then no brakes when i encountered water. The money is not in the sport for companies to do development to produce a perfect bike. Beta engine is the same from the 1994 with some changes.

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49 minutes ago, smalley250 said:

4 Kick starts are ok if used correctly. I had 2007 300 and didnt start it correctly or set carb up. After damaging kickstart paw n idle gear then case i sought advise and never had any issues.

I'm aware good kick starting procedure is important, I also bring the piston first to compression with a few soft strokes on the kick, to then hit with all my weight. Mostly, with a warm up engine, is starts with 1 or 2 kicks. Maybe you some other good kickstarting tips to share?
Last year I had to replace the kick, it was bent over the years in such way that your booth easily slipped off when kicking, but finally it broke at the turning point. And yes they are pricy.

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Mine was a ******* to start from cold. I cant remember the measurement but GasGas Uk Factory Kev told me to take carb off and adjust float level turning it upside down n measure float tips x mm from base. Also from cold choke on and dont touch throttle. All this fixed my problems. 

The idle gear tends to chip teeth and needs to be removed to inspect the inner side, sadly i didnt remove n spot the damage and it ruined the engine. I learnt how to strip it and rebuilt it a great cost. always check filler plug for small bits of metal and if you get a intermittent rattle that could be the idle gear. 

Air box are effective i know they fill up with crap but it dont get past the filter. Always check as i didnt n a mouse had made a home in it n ate part of the filter LOL!

 

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Do we have to go round this loop every time someone buys a gas gas ? Don't people ever read previous posts ?

The filter box isn't a design flaw as it does its job very well. Modern bikes have a low seat height. At some point in the early 90s the separate seat disappeared and was replaced by a filter box you sit on by most manufacturers. This means that the intake cannot be under the seat like it was on an air cooled mono.

On the gas gas the intake is behind the shock so yes you do get mud and water splashing in. That's the point of the flap on the underside, any material amount of water drains back out. In reality in really deep water it can get in that way but it's limited by the design of the flap if the bike is going forward. 

The filter was also moved and is now inside the box not at the air entry point. This means all of the mud in the filter box hasn't got through the filter. It looks bad but it works very well. I always clean the filter but 99 times out of 100 the carb is clean after a trial.

Design has to be a compromise,  the gg filter box provides a very low seat height and a filter system that prevents mud and water getting to the carb. I rode a pro in the 2009 SSDT,  a very wet year and the bike never drowned once. On that basis, in my terms, it's not a flawed design, it does exactly what it was designed to do. The same principles have now been used by Sherco,  Scorpa and TRS ?

Edited by baldilocks
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