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worlez

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Posts posted by worlez
 
 
  1. 46 minutes ago, on it said:

     WTC problems are self inflicted Richk22

    1,The  top route is way to hard with very few that can actually ride it, (but the top boys dont want it eased as thats there advantage gone )

    2, problem observing or the very poor quality of it

    3, sections  1 line (soon becomes very boring for the spectator ) 

    4, lack of consistency in the trials 

    5 lack of use of natural ground (well groomed sections)

    6 multi class /multi route ( trying to make 3 or more sections out of 1 ) 

    7 more demanding for parc ferm than the sections 

    8 trying to pad the trial out with a qualifying speed section  ( how about starting next trial in previous finishing order )

    9 FIM /promoter  running  trials for professional teams and riders cost (but relying  amature volunteers)

    10 lack of entrys   ( see all above  ) 

    you gotta ask your self  who  is going to spectate  WTC  a trials rider or joe public passing by ? if trials riders are turning there back on WTC as its got NO  relevance to trials , a extra course /class ant going to fix it !     

     

    On point one, I'd love to ask somebody like Dibs what he thinks.  He's a very strong rider but is often up and down the results, but I don't get the impression he'd want to see sections eased so that he can be more competitive at the top.  If anything that kind of thing just undermines the graft that they all put in to attain their level.

    The level isn't too hard, there's just a big difference between how good the riders are! 

  2. 1 hour ago, heffergm said:

    I know it'll blow people's minds to hear it, as the internet is the home of complaining, but I don't think there's anything to fix at the world level (aside from going back to three loops. I'll bypass the issue of no-stop for now). Trial2 has proven to be the best thing to happen to world level trials competition in recent memory: you've got a variety of winners, the championship is wide open, guys dropping down from GP are by no means guaranteed to win, manufacturers and importers are pushing riders to Trial2 because they know it's a place they have a chance of getting some visibility on the podium. I'll say it again: it's the best thing going for trials at this level, leave it alone.

    You're never going to have 50 guys riding in GP, the initial pool of people interested in trials at an early age is just too small to result in a huge influx of riders who can compete at that level. If you want more people in GP, you need to start at the bottom by getting more people into the system, not screw around trying to limit the level at the top. The jump to GP should be big: adding a line between GP and Trial2 is just going to shrink two already small groups into three extremely small ones.


    Absolutely agree!

    I really don't think there is the issue that a lot of people seem to think there is.  The reality is Toni Bou has raised the standard of competition to an enormous level - I think this would have happened whatever rule changes were implemented.  He's just an incredibly committed athlete.  Note how the riders who were in Trial GP prior to Bou (Fuji, Raga, Fajardo) have continued to evolve their riding - they've adapted just fine to how the rules/sections have developed, and they're all more or less posting the same year end rankings underneath Bou.

    To the people who whinge that WTC isn't a reflection of domestic club trials - why is that a problem?  If you want trials to continue to evolve and inspire young people, make it an aspirational sport with proportional reward, not limit it's ambition to being a Sunday morning hobby in the mud.  The general standard of Sunday clubman is pretty crap and not something that a 15 year old me would be that inspired to emulate.

  3. 9 hours ago, hgas said:

    The more time passes the more I think maybe Dabill just couldn’t. Get a factory ride for next year ? He’s out of contract with beta although he’s still down to ride Sheffield , such a shame if he does bow out without a trial gp win has he’s more than capable it’s just never happened  for him 

    I'm worried this might be the case also, it would be a real shame to lose him.

  4. 3 hours ago, faussy said:

    Kind of, that's the way the rules were for a few years in the early 2000s, a 1 for any kind of stop, feet up or down. You're correct, but observers were more confident in giving a 1 for a stop because it was less severe, and riders argued less because a 1 didn't ruin their chances so much.

    I can see this being a good way to work it too.  However I think the main difficulty with any of these is identifying the difference between a stop and a pause.  Personally I think it's reasonable to include provision for momentary pauses for composure, allow for body movement across the bike (even thought technically the bike may be stationary).  In fact, I can think of lots of situations where the rider is lunging their weight backwards of forwards across the bike to assert direction, yet the bike may be stood still for a moment.  Usually the no-stop police come crashing in that the bike is technically stationary, despite the rider positively engaging to move the bike.

    I think this is perfectly legitimate given the techniques of manipulating the bikes, but is still very different from an actual stop (the kind of thing where the rider has their heads up, is changing gears etc).

    • Like 3
  5. On 7/5/2019 at 7:39 AM, Intotrials said:

    I agree, this is because the modern bike allows for a riding style that is can be very elite. In that you can do "acrobatics" more easily on a modern bike, which takes fine tuned skill and lots of courage. The average rider hasn't the skills nor the courage to attempt such feats. But you see the young riders coming through are imitating the new riding style and are learning to be brave at this early age. For them this riding style is the norm. For anybody who comes into the sport from a different discipline such as road race or moto x, then the modern style of trials riding is so far removed from what they deem as "motorcycling" they cannot relate to the top level riders.

    I mentioned before, the sport of trials has developed into  2 different sports - Acrobatic trials (X-Trial) and Traditional trials   

    No, the sport has evolved naturally - the ‘average riders’ you refer to haven’t evolved.

    • Like 1
  6. 42 minutes ago, b40rt said:

    Not really a comparison, unless you said everybody was running in army boots ? and Bolt /Bou would still win. However, they wouldn't be throwing themselves up 12' high steps with a less gripping tyre.

    If I was Bou I’d be p****d off that they doctored the sport to limit my potential and would be looking for another sport to challenge myself in. 

    • Like 3
  7. I really find this talk of limiting bikes frustrating and ill thought out.

    If you limit innovation, you are handicapping riders whose ambition drives them to develop the skills that they are capable of.  Why would you possibly want to do this?!

    Trials is a competitive sport.  The argument that WTC level is too far beyond club level illustrates the difference between a professional career athlete and somebody who rides as a hobby.  There is nothing wrong with the latter, but to limit the ambition of riders who are capable/willing/committed enough to push what's possible on a bike is ludicrous.  There is a reason 'the average' (what does that even mean anyway!?) rider can't attempt WTC sections, the same way that Toni Bou wouldn't attempt to achieve what the Sunday league riders achieve in their respective careers'.

    At some point everybody is a clubman - it's the ambition of each rider that determines the way they progress.  If you begrudge not being able to have a go at WTC sections, put the effort in until your ride well enough to attempt them.

    So let's please drop this ludicrous desire to hinder the progression of trials.

     

    • Like 4
  8. 11 hours ago, faussy said:

    They have to bring the whole level down a few notches regardless of stop/nostop and the only way to do that is limit the bikes, and the simplest way to do that is to decrease the performance of the tyre. Either back to 4 ply or change the knob pattern.

    But oh no, you'll have a certain bunch of people who demand that trials should forever increase in difficulty so that they can watch Bou go up steeper and steeper stuff while the entries go lower and lower.

    This is such a ridiculous concept. I’d rather have a good tire and choose whether to attempt something or not than have a worse tire and face the same decision. 

    • Like 1
    • Thanks 1
  9. 1 hour ago, faussy said:

    You obviously were never around in the 70s or have any experience of trials in the past to come out with a statement like that

    Correct, but nor were any of the riders in today’s WTC field and certainly not the future generations who will influence how the sport evolves. So it might as well be dropped as a line of suggestion as it will never, and should never happen, lest the sport become archaic and lose any hope of attracting young riders to pursue a career in competitive trials. 

    • Like 1
  10. 1 hour ago, faussy said:

    They would put less pressure on finding venues capable of hosting a WTC. Theres becoming less and less. You did hear the news that britain isn't hosting a WTC? Its a factor. Modern bikes certainly don't inspire this generation to get involved. If anything, they put people off  I don’t see how no GB round has anything at all to do with the bikes? By way of anecdote, when I got seriously into trials around 14 (I’m now 32) was when I moved from a TY80 to a Beta Gara, and then shortly after a Mont 315. I had loads of fun on the TY but moving onto proper bikes unlocked a whole different world of things to ride and ways to ride it. Every new bike I got gave my riding a new phase of improvement and ambition, so for me the more capable machines certainly did inspire me. This was the same for al my riding friends.

    It is the bikes fault, when the bikes were less capable, experts and clubmen used to ride the same line. Now theres 3 lines, sometimes 4 lines at a trial and it still isn't enough. Put Lewis hamilton in a ford fiesta and you and i wouldnt be that far behind him. Put us in an F1 car, we wouldnt see him past the first corner. Same principle. When things are at a lower level the difference in abilities is minimised. Do you follow the Scottish or the pre65 scottish even? I don’t follow the pre65 but avidly follow the Scottish, and the Scott. Look at the difference in the top ten riders’ scores vs the casual riders in the 200+ range. A less capable bike might make it more challenging for the top riders, but equally more challenging for a less skilled rider. As much as I enjoy them those events are frankly nostalgic and no reflection of where the future of trials ‘skill’ is going. The fact that Dougie can go around for 1 mark suggests that it’s all but been conquered as a technical challenge. It should be seen more as a test of endurance and mental composure than of skill on the bike.

    Accessible? Accessible means lowering the level closer to Joe Bloggs, you're contradicting yourself here. Accessible in the way BMX, downhill MTB, Cyclotrials is. Prolific might have been a better word to make the point.

    PS Your comment sounds like you were on the pish when you wrote it

     

    • Like 1
  11. Sorry but some of the comments on this are absolute pish. 

    What on earth would limiting or regressing bike ability accomplish?? Do you think old heavy twin shocks inspire the next generation of trials riders? I don’t think so, they certainly didn’t inspire me at that age.

    And the point about modern bikes exacerbating the difference in riders’ level is not the bikes fault, it’s the riders. 

    I agree there are obvious issues with WTC and X-Trial at the moment, but I think these are primarily commercial issues borne from the sport being undervalued as a progressive extreme sport. Trials needs to take direction from the likes of Red Bull and create a vision of the sport as challenging, accessible and ultimately alluring. Riding fifty year old technology does nothing towards this. 

    • Like 6
  12. I feel like too much is being read into this. I’d imagine Beta have no vacancy for new Trial GP riders at the moment, being committed to Dabill and Cabes. Perhaps RG didn’t want to/couldn’t renew Toby’s contract (maybe some conflict of interest with Matteo being Trial 2 champ), or perhaps he just got a good offer from Beta. Either way, he’s probably not moved up because there isn’t a team who are looking to field another Trial GP rider right now.

    • Like 1
  13. 10 minutes ago, breagh said:

    Kind of says it all that he's not up for the BTC, bring back a BTC based on the big nationals and ditch this  exclusive  series.

    Include the SSDT and the Scott so we can all feel part of it.

    What’s that got to do with this topic??

  14. 21 minutes ago, faussy said:

    Just seen Toby is staying in Trial2 for another year. Such a waste of a talent, if he was Spanish he would be straight into TrialGP.

    Sorry, but i can only see this as glory hunting. A year wasted. Could you imagine telling Dougie back in the day he had to sit out the premier class for another year?

    I'm disappointed in this too.  Sounded like he had a competitive ride with the big boys at the TdN, and he looked fantastic in the video's I saw of him.

    Not sure I'd say it's glory hunting, he doesn't strike me as the type to be interested in that.  I can see the argument in having another year more or less dominating Trial2 to cement his confidence, but on the other hand moving up has had a steady positive influence on Jack Price's riding.

    • Like 1
  15. 47 minutes ago, b40rt said:

    I think breagh is suggesting that tyres should be smaller, Sammy Miller also suggested this ?

    What’s the point of that? 

    It’s frustrating whenever this ‘restrict the bikes’ notion comes up. Do we want future generations of riders to look at trials as an old fashioned sport with no wow factor to inspire them to pursue it?

    What has bike development got to do with this situation in any way??

  16. 20 minutes ago, faussy said:

    Thats not the point either! The point is the observer chose to give him a five (whether this is deemed correct or not is irrelevant) and subsequently changed his mind. If he changed his mind because of outside influence (whether that be from the crowd/riders or other officals) then that is whats contestable, and ultimately what the FIM are looking into. 

    We shouldnt be arguing whether it was a 5 or not, we would end up arguing every ride in every trial. What we should be arguing is, should an observers decision ever be changed or overturned, and via what means can it be changed. If the observer has a quick reflection and goes, no i made a mistake, it should have been a clean then ok, but if he is unfairly forced to change his decision then this is foul play.

    Andy also touched on a point. While the live scoring is great for most instances, would this have happened if the spectators didnt know the exact scores. Did the live scoring contribute to this? Should live scoring be removed? I think the pros outweigh the cons on this, but it introduces another dynamic. Also, should the observers be allowed to follow the live scoring? Should the riders? Can a rider change his style knowing the current results?

    Agree, just meaning to point out that the stop might be contestable, but hitting a marker is a very distinct fail. ?

    • Like 2
  17. Watch the video in half-speed playback. At 13:22 he jumps up on to the rock - as his back tire squirms left before his corrective hops it hits a red and white flag just behind the bush. You can see the flag spring back as he hops the bike to the right. I think thats what the observer has fived him for. 

  18. I don't think you can call it the beginning of the end, although the pressure must be higher for Bou than in previous years.  However, he's clearly not just a tremendous rider but also a fantastic sportsman and I think is very capable of dealing with pressure.  He often says what Dougie used to say about preferring difficult trials so that he can exploit his advantages more.

    Just watched the TrialGP coverage.  Few of my thoughts...

    • Good on Fajardo for winning.  Don't know why people are dismissive of him, he looked pretty humble and grateful for his win to me.  His scoresheet was very impressive, I don't think it's any more complicated that he just had a really good ride and kept his nerve.
    • Bou still looked like the most accomplished rider.  His cleans were tidier than Fajardo's and Busto's.  He did admit that his confidence is lower since the back injury, and I can understand that as you get older.  Dibs and Fuji have both mentioned they have to pay more attention to physical conditioning these days to prevent injury.
    • I still don't think Busto takes it 100% seriously yet.  Technically he can be very effective, but it's either all or nothing and he's not the most tactical of riders.  Raga's competitive attitude will allow him to keep Busto at bay for a while longer.  Also, Busto isn't really offering anything new to the riding-style; he's basically just a younger Toni.  Compared to Tarres, Dougie and Bou (who all reinvented the riding style for their generation) I don't think Busto is offering anything progressive.  If he does end up dominating I don't think it will be for as long as Toni has.  He hasn't struggled with the move from Honda to GG as much as I thought he would.
    • I really hope Cabes get's some good places.  He's still such a talented rider and seems like a good sport also, so I hope he get's a couple of the results he's hoping for.

    Just my opinions.  Really enjoying the media coverage from Jitsie and TrialGP and hope it continues in this direction.

    • Like 3
 
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