michaelmoore Posted March 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2008 Hi Tony, I found the photos on your website as I was browsing through it, probably about the same time you were posting them in this thread! I'm a bit confused now. You replied earlier "The top picture you show is the DMW frame (Dawson Motor Works) and they also owned MP Forks. The other 2 pics are the Frasier for the TL Honda and the unknown for the Bult." That's four photos and I only had the three images in my post. The MK2 Fraser TL125 frame (top of the three photos) looks to be nearly identical to your DMW frame. I couldn't find a frame like that pictured in the DMW section in Morely's book. Do you know if perhaps the same people made the same basic frame and it was sold as both the DMW and the Fraser? Or did MCW misidentify a DMW frame as being the later Fraser TL frame? Knowing that you plan to have the bike at Donner gives me some extra incentive to try and resurrect the KT250 so I can ride at the event and see your bike. BTW, I enjoyed reading through the articles on your website. You do nice work! cheers, Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony283 Posted March 1, 2008 Report Share Posted March 1, 2008 Michael, Sorry for any confusion. The top picture is a DMW frame and these were made by DMW as their chief engineer was an East Midlands Trials rider. Fraser is a much later frame for the Hondas, and I believe that is your second picture. I rode a fair number of events in the Midlands and I never saw any of these DMW frames during the 60's or 70's. I was also surprized when shortly after having acquired mine a SECOND DMW identical frame came up on e-bay 3 months later! Incidentally Dick Mann also has recently finished a DMW, different design to mine with a Villiers 9E engine. He had it out at Donner last year. This was mine still with the DMW badging This one was on e-bay 3 months later Another action shot see you at Donner Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelmoore Posted March 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 (edited) Tony, thanks for the extra photos. Tracking down the real info gets to be a problem, especially if some journalist who isn't too concerned about fact checking doesn't do any before going to publication. With that kind of forward damper mount on the swing arm your DMW frame would seem to be a late 1970s longer-travel frame. That would correspond with the October 1978 publication date of that top photo I have on my website (anything from MCW/MCN on my website is something that I got from the original paper that I have in my possession so I'm sure about the date of publication). The question that leaves me with is why MCW labeled it as a Fraser TL125 if it is a DMW? However, it does look like the swingarm in the December 1977 MCN photo of the "MK1 Fraser TL125" frame is similar to the later MCW photo. Damper mounts are about the same spot and both have an open back to the axle slot. "Four Stroke Finale" shows a Fraser TL250 and says that David Fraser Products was in Redditch. Is that anywhere close to where DMW was located? Maybe Fraser supplied frames to DMW as well as selling them himself so they could be the same frame under two different names? I note that your frame has a taller steering head above the spine than the other eBay frame photo shows, and that matches the MCW photo. Now if this is anything like some of the other Internet experiences I've had, someone should soon be piping up with "oh, David Fraser lives down the lane from me so let me pop on down and ask him about this, and my brother in law used to work for DMW so I'll check with him too." Seriously, that kind of thing has happened to me with stuff people have spotted on my website. Another enigma shrouded in a mystery. cheers, Michael Edited March 2, 2008 by MichaelMoore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelmoore Posted March 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 Ooops, just noticed that I had a typo. Both of those "Fraser 125" frames were from MCW, not MCW and MCN. The later frame photo, like your DMW, had text with it along the lines of "Because the USA market wouldn't accept the MK1's unit tank/seat assy they went to a 4" OD spine frame holding the fuel. A dummy tank cover is fitted. Down tubes were added at dealers' request, though the prior version got along without them just fine." That seems a pretty direct link back to the TL frame photo they (MCW) published 10 months earlier. Curiouser and curiouser. cheers, Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfwilson Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 MichaelMoore, I used to ride on my then new 1971 250 Bultaco Alpina out to watch the NMTA practice in the Sandia foot hills east of Tramway at end of Indian School Road. There were usually about 20 riders messing about on the granite. I remember a pretty brunette girl who along with her father participated in the events. They asked me to try trials but being a new rider with limited skills I thought it best not to embarrass my self. Do you happen to remember who they are? Thanks Doug Wilson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelmoore Posted March 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 (edited) Hi Doug, I didn't know that many people and I didn't really get started until probably 1973 (MX was what first caught my attention and I raced my TS185 in Sept 71 at Volcano Cliffs, moved up to a TM400R (the former Motorsport shop bike -- I worked there part time for my first couple of years at UNM), a 1972 125 Maico from Bob's MX and Kart Shop, and finally a 250 Griffon). I remember Carl Shipman (247 Cota) who had the line of "Dirt Rider" products and who wrote several books including "How to ride observed trials just for fun!" The photos in that were mostly from the NMTA events (and I'm even in the background of a few, but that was when I was mostly like you just checking things out). Some of the names I pulled out of the book are: Don Anderson (Bultaco), Bill Anderson, Sue Bryner (Saracen and 16 years old at the time so she may be who you were thinking of), Harold Shepard (Shep) (Bultaco), Leo Kurowski (MAR), Walter Nance (Bultaco), Bud Cole (SL125 Honda), Wayne Ebaugh (MAR), Dave Boland (MAR), Gene Hirscman. It has been a while since I last looked at the book and it was a nice walk down memory lane! After I got my Sherpa T I remember Wiltz Wagner, Bob Nickelsen and Elliot Shultz coming down from Colorado and I took a morning trials school with them. cheers, Michael Edited March 3, 2008 by MichaelMoore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swooshdave Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Incidentally Dick Mann also has recently finished a DMW, different design to mine with a Villiers 9E engine. He had it out at Donner last year. see you at Donner Tony Here's Dick's bike. I heard that he built it for Kay. For those of you who don't know, Dick is in the Rickman shirt. Can we assume this bike is older than the Ossamahma? I need to re-read your story on this as to why that name. I guess DMWahma doesn't sound as sexy? The guy on the left had an interesting bike there too. Apparently a factory TY250. I'm sure someone knows more about that one. I have some pictures from when he brought it to Chehalis. Most what I remember of him was an accent and a propensity to "garden" as Derek Belvoir called it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelmoore Posted March 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 I suspect that is a Premier Lightweight class bike as Dick seems to mostly build Premier bikes for trials and MX. It sure looks early to mid-1960s. http://www.localhistory.scit.wlv.ac.uk/Mus...rcycles/DMW.htm has some interesting history and photos on DMW. But the Internet is far from full of DMW information. cheers, Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swooshdave Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 I suspect you are thinking of Charlie's (senior moment time as his last name is escaping me at the moment though I've known him for years) TY400 which is a modified DT400 engine in a modified TY250 chassis. He built that with assistance from Craig Hanson at Hanson Racing Technology in Chico. I met Craig in the early 1980s when I was RRing my TT500 and he's the one who got me started building frames and he has given me a lot of good information and advice down through the years. Craig rides a heavily modified TL250.If you've got some nice photos of Charlie's bike I'd be interested in putting them on my website. I found some shots that I took up at the PITS property but it was on one of those really sunny days and the bike was in very deep shadow and the photos aren't really usable. Is this the bike you were thinking of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelmoore Posted March 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Hi Dave, Yes, that's Charlie's bike. He's a good rider, and raced a KR750 Harley "back in the day" that he'd bought new. The bike has had a lot of of modification done to it. cheers, Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kt250guy Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 (edited) There was something like that at Chehalis either this year or last year. I think it was 2006 and I may have archived those photos already. It was something like a 400cc motor stuffed in a 250 frame. Let me see if I can dig it up.As for a new frame for an old bike, make sure you hit up Jay Lael, he knows a thing or two about that. yeah I saw a video on the net of a tt500 trails bike i dont know what frame it was in but I think it was a mix of ty250's and 175's it looked like it worked ok from what I saw that 400 250 mix i'm not sure how well it worked because I only saw a few sections where he rode it and it wasnt a pretty sight i'm not sure if it was the bike, rider, or both but the rider was line 4(Beginner line) and i don't think a yz400 motor is the most controllable motor out there but it's still a neat idea Edited April 22, 2008 by KT250guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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