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Pre 65 Bultaco M10


twinshock
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The website in Australia is

www.trials.com.au

Have a look at the bike in question in Forums - Twinshock and Classic - Pre 65 Bultaco M10,,,,, 2nd page

Its also pictured on the home page

Cheers

What i dont get is after looking at it why the heck didnt someone say something, possibly along the lines of youre taking the pi55, about the bike in the first place ?

:P err sorry :rotfl: or should it be :rotfl:

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I see Woody has been over to set the record straight though what will be thought of that is anyones guess.

Of course none of our business what they do, and no doubt without the question here we would probably of never known about the issue, but it's still interesting (to me) and gets us talking about the history of our old mounts.

Wayne....

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I wouldn't have posted on there if I hadn't seen the suggestion that the person quoting Sammy Miller may have been lying in order to sway peoples opinion to vote the Bultaco out of Pre65 - he also suggested that person may also have an ulterior motive as they may hate Bultacos. As it was me I felt compelled to respond but I've no interest in getting involved in the debate. It's as clear an issue as black is from white as far as I'm concerned.

I still feel though that the twinshock class, here and there, should be categorised into seperate classes in national events at least, in order to encourage riders on older bikes to have a go. That way the older twinshocks can compete against machines of similar capability. If he rides his M10 in the twinshock class he is up against 1980s bikes and the M10 is seriously outclassed in that company - just as much as it outclasses genuine Pre65 bikes. Maybe 3 classes, Pre72, Pre77 and Post77. Maybe 4 classes, Pre70, Pre75, Pre80 and Post 80.

In Sunday's Miller round there were just over 30 twinshocks on the harder route and about 26 of them were Post80. Only a few oldies in there. On the easier route, out of the twinshocks entered, about 10 in total, roughly half were Post80.

Riders on the older bikes who may be struggling a bit see better riders on newer bikes making light work of the sections and it just convinces them that they need a newer twinshock too, so the old Bult ot Montesa stays in the shed and is replaced with a Fantic or Honda. If they were riding in a class which catered for their year of bike it may encourage them to continue riding the older bike. Variety of bikes adds a lot to the enjoyment of these events.

Problem is, the Miller series already has about 10 classes as it is....

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G'Day gentlemen

I started the debate on TC after the debacle in Aus of allowing the bike to compete and win in Classic Pre 65 Class last year. I wasn't riding in our titles last year because of distance, time and cost but without doubt I would have slapped a protest in after coming from the origins of the last of the Brit bikes and seeing the Spanish come in and then the Japs to do what they did to the local manufacturers.

On our Trials Australia website you will have seen the passion stirred up with guys saying "what a pretty bike, you must be allowed to compete on it" and "they are only annoyed and trying to stop you because you won" but as a competitor I just wanted a fair challenge and I got my point across several times.

I knew there would be factual info available from the UK and I'm so grateful to all you guys who have commented, especially Woody and Wayne and some of you will remember an Ex Brit Chris Leighfield who has added his thoughts from this end, thanks guys.

My aim was never to slag the bike or rider but just to point out the error of firstly Motorcycling Australia allowing the bike into Classic and secondly the owner needed to know the facts of the origins of the bike and hopefully he will be riding it in Twinshock in August this year where I will be riding my 64 Cub in Classic at our Aus titles in Queensland.

Thanks again Gentlemen

Twinshock AKA Roger Galpin

Edited by Twinshock
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G'Day gentlemen

I started the debate on TC after the debacle in Aus of allowing the bike to compete and win in Classic Pre 65 Class last year. I wasn't riding in our titles last year because of distance, time and cost but without doubt I would have slapped a protest in after coming from the origins of the last of the Brit bikes and seeing the Spanish come in and then the Japs to do what they did to the local manufacturers.

On our Trials Australia website you will have seen the passion stirred up with guys saying "what a pretty bike, you must be allowed to compete on it" and "they are only annoyed and trying to stop you because you won" but as a competitor I just wanted a fair challenge and I got my point across several times.

I knew there would be factual info available from the UK and I'm so grateful to all you guys who have commented, especially Woody and Wayne and some of you will remember an Ex Brit Chris Leighfield who has added his thoughts from this end, thanks guys.

My aim was never to slag the bike or rider but just to point out the error of firstly Motorcycling Australia allowing the bike into Classic and secondly the owner needed to know the facts of the origins of the bike and hopefully he will be riding it in Twinshock in August this year where I will be riding my 64 Cub in Classic at our Aus titles in Queensland.

Thanks again Gentlemen

Twinshock AKA Roger Galpin

After reading his responses i think he has demonstrated his mindset quite conclusively. If he rides in Twinshock he will probably be on an air cooled mono fitted with twinshocks :P:rotfl:

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I think it is pretty clear to most that the M10 is not a pre-65 bike, and in fact is the whole reason a pre-65 vintage class was started in subsequent years! Miller's pre-production works machine running around in late 1964 doesn't consititute a 1964 model of a bike not publicly available until 1965... as a 1965 model. The M10 is an interesting machine and deserves a class to compete in... but it's lack of competitiveness with later twinshock models cannot be used as justification to bend the rules and admit it to an earlier era of machinery.

Unfortunately, no matter where you cut off the rules eligability, one machine or another is going to be left out in the cold, forced to compete with "similar" but newer and more capable bikes. Two "wrongs" however, don't make a "right"!

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According to the DVLA website, Miller's Bultaco 669NHO was first registered 26.11.1964.

Martin

I now have been informed from "a man that knows" that Millers Bultaco 669NHO was running a modified Matador frame......so technically a M10 4 speed did not exist pre 65 in any form.

Martin

Edited by MartinM
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Hi guys

Not trying to stir things up , but i've just spotted this for sale on bultaco uk's site . It says it's a 1963 model N , if so would this be eligible for our ( the uk's ) pre 65 trials ????? Cheers Keith

post-3098-1270149047.jpg

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Hi Guy's,

Hi Hewson,

Taking a look at the bike, yes it would be, most of it looks PRE 65 , except some cosmetics , but would you enjoy a day out riding it,along with the Brit bikes and the comments?

OK I know most of the Brit bikes are a lot younger and most parts on most bikes are still warm from manufacture, but it is the Spirit of riding part of British History, that was the "Trials bike" (Iron), built in a British factory whether big or small, and only copied by other countries wanting to cash in on its success as a sport.

But the most important thing in my mind is, If we say, well one or two wont make a lot of difference. The next thing we know every one will be making replica Bultaco M10,s to compete in all Pre 65 classes. And all British four stroke bikes especially,whether newly built or original, will be left firmly in the back of the shed to Rot along with there history. And we don't want that thank you!

Regards Charlie.

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1964 Bultaco calander...........presumably, they were developing trials bikes in 1963. No wonder Miller only took 2 weeks to sort the bike, it looks like it was pretty well done 2 years before he got it.

1964-12.jpg

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Martin

Yes, I took some time last night to read relevent pages in the book "A Passion for the Sport" A history of Bultaco.

It was going on long before the often quoted 12 day development.

Reading between the lines both the SherpaT and the Early Matadors evolved out of the Sherpa N.

Maybe this is why a Mk2 Matador seemed to be the 1st production model. The MK1 possibly being the 1962 factory 175cc prototypes that Oriol Bulto and Jose Sanchez rode in the 37th ISDT.

It is also suggested that SHM made a Proposal to Paco Bulto at the 63 ISDT.

Still doesnt change the fact that the M10 as we know it was a 1965 bike.

Wayne...

Edited by wayne_weedon
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Hi Guy's.

1961-63 We were developing, the "Works" Bultaco trials ride, In Banbury at North Bar Garage, for works road race rider Dan Shorey. This bike was a converted Sherpa"N" I seem to remember that tyre clearance was a problem,along with the exhaust system,that restricted the motor to much, this was later cured by fitting the famous Peco silencer box. Front fork movement also needed sorting. This bike may well still be in the town.I will make a couple of phone calls. But I myself would not even class this bike as Pre 65 as it was only a prototype development bike(a thing to play with) at the time. [Picture further up the forum].

Regards Charlie.

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Martin

Yes, I took some time last night to read relevent pages in the book "A Passion for the Sport" A history of Bultaco.

It was going on long before the often quoted 12 day development.

Reading between the lines both the SherpaT and the Early Matadors evolved out of the Sherpa N.

Maybe this is why a Mk2 Matador seemed to be the 1st production model. The MK1 possibly being the 1962 factory 175cc prototypes that Oriol Bulto and Jose Sanchez rode in the 37th ISDT.

It is also suggested that SHM made a Proposal to Paco Bulto at the 63 ISDT.

Still doesnt change the fact that the M10 as we know it was a 1965 bike.

Wayne...I had an entry in the 1965 Scottish and in the April decided to buy a new bike - Don Smith and others were awaiting the first batch of 250 Sherpas but as at that time they were an unknown qauntity I bought a new Greeves TFS from Don.Lucky enough to have a ride in Scotland again this year. Incidentally yesterday I bought the ex Billy Mills 197 James on which he enjoyed sucess in the Mid Wales Centre in the 50's and erarly 60's.

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