No stop

[jimmyl]

Anybody slagging off an out of touch ACU really do not know what has gone on or what was at stake.

I think the current ACU commitee are as aproachable and as open as any I know.

If you are sat here making wild accusations then you probably have made no effort to go to your local club or centre meetings. (or even suggested a possible good suggestion).

At S3/Normandale/Sammy miller etc no stop has appeared to of been no disadvantage. BTC I know of sections that I have plotted intending to be ridden in a flowing manor only to find the top boys have the ability to break the section in to smaller parts and negate the natural hazard. The natural reaction is then to put the bigger, more extreme, more dangerous stuff in. We then try and make the riders rush these hazards to mimic no stop by applying a time limit with other associated risks -ie James Dabils crash at Mitchell in 2010.

Not sure what the answer is but doing nothing will not make things any better. If the top boys think things wher perfect it appears this message was not communicated to the ACU or the factory/importers they are riding for.

Maybe we should run a stop allowed series for private private entrants on std bikes (James,Alex, Michael, Jonathon, Jacks etc welcome) and a series sponsored by the importers in which they determine the rules.

See what you get then!!!!!

[ishy]

"1: THERE IS A GREAT BIG WORLD WIDE MONSTER RECESSION

2: LIVING IN GENERAL COSTS A LOT MORE

3: FUEL COSTS A LOT LOT MORE (OVER 50% INCREASE IN PAST FEW YEARS)

4: BIKES COST A LOT MORE (50% INCREASE I THINK SINCE 2008)"

Those were the days

[for artie]

Lots of people have posted that 80 - 99% of UK competitors dont care about WTC and would prefer just one rule and thats no stop so why dont we have a poll on TC.

IF 80-99% don't care about WTC then WHY does it matter if Bou rides a works bike???

The standard 4RT is great Clubman entry level bike......... but all we hear is bitching about Bou's bike.

Alfredo Gomez won the Euro Champ on a standard bike with some aftermarket bits that anyone can buy.

If the sport is to grow then we need more Honda and Yamaha and less Greeves and Xispa.

How many new riders have been financially forced out of the sport by poor quality bikes that require constant input of $$$$ and offer p*** poor resale. Quality bike = more riders can afford to stay in the sport.

How many lads have started into the sport via the TY 80 ? a 35 year old bike. Quality keeps bikes in circulation longer and creates a good entry level price bikes for the Noobies.

Name another Manufacturer besides Honda that has been building trials bikes since 1974.

Edited December 1, 2011 by for artie

[for artie]

Good point but look at it another way....

There are over 1000 Osets in the UK, if availability of bikes is an issue where are all these when we run a conducted trial?

The OSET will save the sport.

[tricky dicky]

I may be wrong and to be honest I haven't read all the posts but read a big chunk.]

It seems to me that those who want no stop are either over the age (generally but not always) of wanting to learn to hop etc or are from areas where the the venues and terrain will easily accomodate a no stop trial e.g Yorkshire, Derbyshire etc.

I have done a lot of my riding this year in the South Midland Centre where venues are 1) at a premium and hard to get and 2) do not especially lend themsleves to nice long flowing no stop style of sections

There are lots of tight, twisty, technical sections laid out (at expert level) in order to take some marks of riders.

I rode specifically in these events and venues as I wanted to improve my technical riding and really feel that centre's like South Midlands will struggle to adopt no stop rules.

As I understand it they (south mids centre) have not yet done anything to implement this either and my hope is that at a club or a centre level that the clubs have the openness and honesty to 1) inform the riders, officials, members etc that a vote will be happening 2) enforce that vote whichever way it goes.

To do what the ACU (and seemingly other clubs have) done and just change the rules without discussing with the riders is just ridiculous.

Also, following on with what Alexz said about the likes of Nadal (tennis) Messi (football) and other mega stars you want to aspire to being that good but reality dictates that most wont get there anywhere near yet you dont see the FA saying 'you cant do this anymore in the premier league' or the WTA saying 'you can only serve at under 70mph' none of this BS puts people off in exactly the same way that 'stop allowed' wont put anybody off riding. The reasons people are not riding as much or not riding at all or not starting the sport are simple

1: THERE IS A GREAT BIG WORLD WIDE MONSTER RECESSION

2: LIVING IN GENERAL COSTS A LOT MORE

3: FUEL COSTS A LOT LOT MORE (OVER 50% INCREASE IN PAST FEW YEARS)

4: BIKES COST A LOT MORE (50% INCREASE I THINK SINCE 2008)

All - and I mean literally ALL the tw@ts at the ACU have acheived in this daft rule change is driving the top 2 riders in Britain (Dabill and Brown) to go and compete elsewhere in 2012 for national championships and p*ssing off the rest of the BTC riders like Alexz and Jack etc etc.

So well done, to the out of touch ACU and the older riders who run clubs who will successfully ruin the BTC and potentially stop lots of younger riders from wanting to continue in the sport.... Massive round of applause for their inability to see anything

What happens when these clowns call it a day who will step in then? no one! there'll be no one under the age of 40 left

Somebody must have upset you before this rant of complete rubbish. I'm guessing you don't do much help with a club judging by the negative attitude.

You say that no stop doesn't lend itself to your local terrain, I disagree as if you try to do something no stop you get one bite at the cherry, there's no way to correct yourself so therefore sections that are a bit tight and nadgery don't need to be silly tight.

The ACU are only acting on the BTC to try and revive a flatliner. The BTC was dead years ago with the current format. Without expert B the championship wouldn't run and that's unfortunately a fact. Hardly anybody goes to watch at world or British level anymore. It's obvious that the recession has a massive bearing on this and I completely agree with that part of your post. I'm interested to know how you would solve the problem? It's not easy at all as the director of the FIM trials committee is British and will happily just sit on the fence instead of trying to help our riders.

[woody]

No-one who has crioticised the ACU decision has yet put forward a proposal (as far as I'm aware) for how they think the declining entries at BTC level should or could be addressed.

Whereas I have no interest in it, I can see that it has been in decline in terms of numbers of entries for some years. Personally I'm not sure it mattered if riders are happy with the format and organising clubs are happy to put all that effort in to run events for that few people. However, something has obviously happened to cause this decision and I have no idea what.

This decision seems to have wound up a lot of people and in reality, I'm guessing that few are actually affected in any way. Those that are will be the riders, the clubs and officials that organise the events and the spectators that go to watch.

Whether the no-stop rule is the right way to go I have no idea, but for those criticising, what would you do to revive a dying championship class. If you have better ideas it would be interesting to hear them.

[woody]

All - and I mean literally ALL the tw@ts at the ACU have acheived in this daft rule change is driving the top 2 riders in Britain (Dabill and Brown) to go and compete elsewhere in 2012 for national championships and p*ssing off the rest of the BTC riders like Alexz and Jack etc etc.

So well done, to the out of touch ACU and the older riders who run clubs who will successfully ruin the BTC and potentially stop lots of younger riders from wanting to continue in the sport.... Massive round of applause for their inability to see anything

What happens when these clowns call it a day who will step in then? no one! there'll be no one under the age of 40 left

I wonder if those 'twats' at Rugby will renew your licence next year....

If you're going to criticise decisions and /or people, there is a constructive way to do it rather than being downright offensive. To be honest, you don't deserve an entry in trials run by 'over 40s, clowns and twats'. Wonder what sort of welcome you get at the next of their events you turn up to. Take a look at the 'old bloke or women' taking your entry or punching your card (or face) at the next trial and think about how much effort they have put in over the years so riders can enjoy their sport. There are few coming through to replace them and it has nothing to do with this BTC decision.

The no-stop decision is for BTC only - that means 90% of us are unaffected by it so I have no idea what people are getting wound up over. You say it will stop lots of younger riders continuing in the sport - where are they now? The BTC is hardly turning entries away is it. Where are these riders now who should be clammering at the door to ride BTC and who you say will lose interest. Surely, the rules have been what they want for years, so what's wrong, where are they?

This decline began a good few years ago, nothing to do with the recession, no-stop or cost of fuel. We're talking BTC here, not newcomers into trials. The decline is because the sections are too hard and not enough riders have the ability to move up to that class. That's it in a nutshell. Costs these days are obviously a factor in anything, but no way are they the catalyst for what's happened.

If you really think that 'over 40s' and suchlike are responsible for killing the sport then it is you who have the inability to see the wider picture.

[for artie]

Let's give credit to the companies who actually sell what they use in competition. Too bad Honda will only build a few works bikes while not providing better equipment to their customers !

Right ......and Cabby never used Showa forks and Raga never used a Showa shock and they never used DID rims on their works bikes all the while they were selling the customers bikes fitted inferior components.

They all ride works bikes = not standard.

Why did this No Stop debate turn into a Honda slagging contest. The people that have 4 RTs are happy. Quit trying to tell them they should be unhappy.

If you want to demand some thing from the factories that will benefit the sport ask them for improved quality.

Edited December 1, 2011 by for artie

[woody]

Take a look at factory bikes from the 50s onwards - none were the same as customer bikes sold over the counter and that applies to Montesa Ossa and Bultacos too. The concept is nothing new.

[nigel dabster]

Alfredo Gomez won the Euro Champ on a standard bike with some aftermarket bits that anyone can buy.

Gomez has had a semi works bike since 2008.

He has never been european champion.

[nigel dabster]

No-one who has crioticised the ACU decision has yet put forward a proposal (as far as I'm aware) for how they think the declining entries at BTC level should or could be addressed.

Whereas I have no interest in it, I can see that it has been in decline in terms of numbers of entries for some years. Personally I'm not sure it mattered if riders are happy with the format and organising clubs are happy to put all that effort in to run events for that few people. However, something has obviously happened to cause this decision and I have no idea what.

This decision seems to have wound up a lot of people and in reality, I'm guessing that few are actually affected in any way. Those that are will be the riders, the clubs and officials that organise the events and the spectators that go to watch.

Whether the no-stop rule is the right way to go I have no idea, but for those criticising, what would you do to revive a dying championship class. If you have better ideas it would be interesting to hear them.

Is it a dying championship if it is oversubscribed at most rounds? No one can dispute that there is a small elite class but this is simply 6 events for elite riders who can ride the toughest sections at this level, marked in the same way as the FIM. If no stop is the answer why is Dave Willoughby not pushing for it at WTC?

The fact that the series is almost hidden under a bushell, not supported by the importers with trade stands and displays, banners tape and pr in general may have something to do with its success, however that is measured.

The changes proposed, name a rider who will leap at the chance to ride no stop at the top level who doesnt now? Two classes, no minders and no stop will not increase overall entries surely? If the changes are regarded as sensible why have a practice lap where the sections are ridden several times, whats the logic in that?

Edited December 1, 2011 by Nigel Dabster

[telecat]

Let's look at the role of the importers in this. They are concerned with the number of bikes being SOLD not the BTC as such. Now I have to say I have been to numerous Trials and the importers are not big in supporting Trials outside of the BTC and the WTC. This begs the question who are they trying to sell to? The existing market is already covered. Everybody here knows who they are and where they sell. Outside of this community they are barely known. That's where the expansion is and the current importers are not really doing anything about expanding the market. I went to the KX Energy drink Promotion in Leeds and Nobody from the Importers had bikes there for the Public to "drool" over and that was a gold plated opportunity. There were plenty of Kids watching with Biking Dads but no Promotion from the Importers. Now I understand that Tesco's may have limited promotion but it seemed a wasted opportunity.

The BUMPY initiative at the Motorcycle show did at least get the Bikes from Gas Gas. But the whole thing was setup by,(to their credit), the ACU.

So why are the importers so convinced that changing the rules will help? I don't know. The same riders will turn up except that we already know that Dibs is out, Wiggy has indicated that the rules aren't going to help him so I cannot see him doing BTC if he can do a European series that will. That leaves Michael Brown, (Who does not seem thrilled by the new regs), Sam Haslam, Ross Danby, Jack Challoner, Jon Richardson and Ben Morphett as probable regulars. With Jon being in the SPEA program would he be keen to ride BTC? Jack rides for Top Trial Team so would they let him ride? Hence we could be done to four regulars. Unless they have some ideas of the Next generation moving straight into the Championship class then I do not see the logic. I see rider numbers down rather than up and the expense is unchanged as you have to be there for two days rather than one.

Personally I hear every Year that sections will be eased to encourage riders but that doesn't happen. C of C's seem to be in competition with each other to make each round harder and nobody from the ACU seems able to "reign" them in. Nobody wants to criticise them too much in case they take their toys home with them.

No-Stop rules meaning the sections will be eased?? I'll believe it when I see it. More riders? More in the second tier probably. A solution to a perceived Numbers problem?

Not a hope.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Telecat

[pete_scorpa3]

Take a look at the 'old bloke or women' taking your entry or punching your card (or face) at the next trial and think about how much effort they have put in over the years so riders can enjoy their sport. There are few coming through to replace them and it has nothing to do with this BTC decision.

Steady on, I'm not as old as I look!!!

[rosey]

Well done for ACU for making a decision! However, they should not keep their reasons a secret (if indeed they are doing so).

... on a side note I asked a Q. in another discussion on here about how many licence (or ID card whatever) holders there are in trials and with no response.... Is this secret too?

As for moaning about O 40's... I'm an old git.. hardly ride now, but those that think old gits can't ride bikes are wrong.. there are a lot of old duffers who can hop, bop AND also ride no-stop too!....... From what I've witnessed too there are a good few young guns who think they are really good at the trick stuff...

OTF... Yes! Clearly old duffers are mad for laying out trials for ungrateful types (who probably don't even provide observers etc. rant rant rant....).. its a good job they are mad (insane even), as otherwise they would realise it wasn't worth doing!

Works bike stuff.. fancy Honda Mont etc.... Bou would still be up there on a standard bike (yes it would make a difference, but not that much).... The bike in trials is not that important!!!... Just see how all those (at a trial near you!) that try to have all the latest 'works kit' etc. ride..??? No better than they do on normal stuff!

Now't wrong with having the stuff if they want it/can afford it, but its not the bike......

... unless you have rim stickers on then its just a secret weapon

Edited December 1, 2011 by Rosey

[tricky dicky]

I wonder if those 'twats' at Rugby will renew your licence next year....

If you're going to criticise decisions and /or people, there is a constructive way to do it rather than being downright offensive. To be honest, you don't deserve an entry in trials run by 'over 40s, clowns and twats'. Wonder what sort of welcome you get at the next of their events you turn up to. Take a look at the 'old bloke or women' taking your entry or punching your card (or face) at the next trial and think about how much effort they have put in over the years so riders can enjoy their sport. There are few coming through to replace them and it has nothing to do with this BTC decision.

The no-stop decision is for BTC only - that means 90% of us are unaffected by it so I have no idea what people are getting wound up over. You say it will stop lots of younger riders continuing in the sport - where are they now? The BTC is hardly turning entries away is it. Where are these riders now who should be clammering at the door to ride BTC and who you say will lose interest. Surely, the rules have been what they want for years, so what's wrong, where are they?

This decline began a good few years ago, nothing to do with the recession, no-stop or cost of fuel. We're talking BTC here, not newcomers into trials. The decline is because the sections are too hard and not enough riders have the ability to move up to that class. That's it in a nutshell. Costs these days are obviously a factor in anything, but no way are they the catalyst for what's happened.

If you really think that 'over 40s' and suchlike are responsible for killing the sport then it is you who have the inability to see the wider picture.

What a fantastic post! Well said indeed!

As you say everybody who is criticising the rule change has no solution what would solve the issue.

Dave Willoughby won't push it at WTC as he is on a nice little earner for sitting on the fence.

I have been informed that the main class at BTC is aimed at anybody who is expert level and the support class is for anybody that isn't. The importers are pushing for trials where a good centre expert can ride the same course as the top boys and then can see how they fair.

I personally don't really see how 6 events will make any difference to the top boys attack on the WTC.

So what happens when nobody buys any bikes and the factories all close? The top boys are out of a job!

I think the indoor championship should have more riders and let that be the showcase but in all fairness who goes to watch an indoor and would think "I could have a go at that?", nobody is my guess. Whereas at a club trial , people go to watch and will then be itching to have a go.

Fair enough the BTC should be the pinnacle of the sport in the UK but with less than 10 doing sections barely anybody can even aspire to then something needed to change and it has.

In my opinion if the world rounds are hopping rules then it should revert to the rules of the early and mid 90's where a stationary dab is a five. That immediately cuts out the rubbish rule where riders can stand with their feet down.