transit Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 No matter what the rule used, stop or no stop, a rider can benefit from a particular observers interpretation of the rules or how strict they are on observing those rules ( there are many reasons this happens) this is a fact of life, each rider has at sometime, got away with a clean etc, etc, they don't mind or complain then. We could have professional observers, fully trained and accountable, if riders are happy to pay about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 As title says really and without wanting to start the whole 'stop allowed' V's 'no stop' thing again. I was at the Wallace yesterday and saw Alexz in the section where he was docked 2 points. He either dropped a 0 or he dropped a 5, he didn't drop 2. The observer in question couldn't even explain where Wiggy had dropped his 2 points and was giving riders who actually stopped a 0.... Ultimately this ridiculous marking cost Wiggy the trial as he actually stayed clean all day. Now taking away 'stop' or 'no stop' the BIGGEST issue here is observer consistency. 'No stop' rules allows for observer interpretation to be almost as bigger factor as rider ability and this is fundamentally wrong. It allows a rider who clumsily and unskilfully foots his/her way through a section to potentially beat a much more skilled opponent who cleans the section but was 'deemed' to have stopped by the observer. If we must run under these pathetic rules (and yes I'm FULLY aware that the S3 champs has been no stop for a while) it is down to the organisers to ensure that each and every observer fully understands the rules and how to implement them. As it stands the S3 champs is not a priority for Wiggy this year, however these boys like to win and a win is still a win, and this could easily replicate itself in a BTC event for Dibs, Brown, Wigg etc. 'Stop' allowed virtually eliminates this inconsistency. Many of us remember your post previously concerning 'stop-non stop' rules http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/topic/39103-no-stop-not-working/ it's fairly obvious that you are against non stop, however the issue of Alexz's score is not one of the rules but one of observing. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwalters Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I recorded all the top riders on this section and I'll post the videos on youtube later in the week. Most of the top riders can be seen to stop and so strictly speaking should have been given fives. I would not have liked to observe that section - or any for that matter under these no-stop rules... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabby Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 dodgy observing cost me the wallace today, The above line is Wiggy's exact words on his own FB page, so to me he's blaming the observer, not the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I'd just like to make clear one thing, knowing how things can be taken seriously out of context on these bloody forums... I am not criticising observers in the comments I made. Just illustrating that observing can be inconsistent whatever the rules - it is after all subjective and down to one individual's interpretation. The rules themselves play no part in it. I wouldn't like to see it turn into a rambling criticism of observing. Without them, consistent, inconsistent or otherwise, it's game over. They make mistakes, just like riders do - going the wrong way, missing flags, riding the wrong route, forgetting to turn fuel on, silly dabs etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatabeta Posted February 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I think you'll find this is nothing to do with stop / no stop as I clearly stated and is ALL to do with observer inconsistencies as I clearly stated. I also clearly stated that it was either a 0 or a 5 so do don't get caught up in the fact that I do personally do not agree with no stop rules. I have ridden the Wallace many times and it mostly supports the no stop rules. In my eyes Wiggy cleaned the section - not based on the fact that he did/didn't stop and definitely not based on my dislike of no stop but based on the fact that I and many others witnessed that several other riders were given a 0 when they clearly stopped. So based on that, I feel I'm right in saying that it DID cost him the trial. Had everyone got 5 when they stopped and he got 2 then yes he'd be lucky to 'get away' with 2 The simple fact is (again as I CLEARLY stated) observer inconsistencies cost him the trial. stop or not he didn't drop 2, based on the observers scoring of other riders he dropped a 0 on that section. That being said the trial was, as always excellent and great fun with just about the right severity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rontheyank Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 It looks like some of you are now (at last) beginning to realise (and for those of my age, remembering) why we went to stop allowed rules in the first place....For the Observers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02-apr Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 "Again just highlights how poorly thought out the no stop rules are" Hardly - they've had decades of use. In some places they never went away. And from what I've seen of high level trials with stop allowed (the latest rules of which I have not read as the previous iteration was nigh incomprehensible) it seems that you actually have to be lying on the ground in a heap away from the bike to get a five, and sometimes not even then. An absolute joke and every observer has my sympathy with what riders expect to be allowed to get away with beyond the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I think you'll find this is nothing to do with stop / no stop as I clearly stated and is ALL to do with observer inconsistencies as I clearly stated. I also clearly stated that it was either a 0 or a 5 so do don't get caught up in the fact that I do personally do not agree with no stop rules. I have ridden the Wallace many times and it mostly supports the no stop rules. In my eyes Wiggy cleaned the section - not based on the fact that he did/didn't stop and definitely not based on my dislike of no stop but based on the fact that I and many others witnessed that several other riders were given a 0 when they clearly stopped. So based on that, I feel I'm right in saying that it DID cost him the trial. Had everyone got 5 when they stopped and he got 2 then yes he'd be lucky to 'get away' with 2 The simple fact is (again as I CLEARLY stated) observer inconsistencies cost him the trial. stop or not he didn't drop 2, based on the observers scoring of other riders he dropped a 0 on that section. That being said the trial was, as always excellent and great fun with just about the right severity. But you are saying that under stop allowed it wouldn't have happened 'Stop' allowed virtually eliminates this inconsistency This isn't true. In that specific section maybe not but how many times have we seen under stop allowed a rider go unpenalised for rolling back, either intentionally or otherwise. If marks are close between that rider and another, an observing decision can still cost someone a place/win. Imagine rider A cleans the last section of the trial correctly and is now 3 points behind rider B. Rider B makes his attempt, fails to clear a rock, root or is stuck on the lip of a bank - whatever - and puts a foot down to pull the bike over. Whilst doing this the bike rocks back and forth as the rider attempts to wrestle it over and finally succeeds. It's a 5 but how often is it givem. More commonly a 1 is given, sometimes a 3. Without the 5 rider B wins the trial. Stop allowed can be subject to inconsistencies in observing every bit as non-stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmo1 Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Looking forward to the day when someone comes on here and admits that they won a trial because of a generous observing decision - don't hold your breath!! Come on guys we have all had the super strict observer, but lets be honest most of us have also had more than our share of 'benefit of the doubt' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 It looks like some of you are now (at last) beginning to realise (and for those of my age, remembering) why we went to stop allowed rules in the first place....For the Observers... Not sure if you're serious or not.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalley250 Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Out of interest would you observe a no stop trial or a stop permitted. I have observed a stop but would not a no stop, as I would feel the interpretation of a stop, rider n my view maybe different and not worth the confrontation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorcycleemptyness Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) As per usual some have you have gone off topic Please view the following video and decide for yourselves if this is the way you think No-Stop at National Level should be . Take note of Alexz Wiggs reaction to the 'clean' ride. Edited February 20, 2012 by motorcycleemptyness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2plus10 Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Jeez, that's a tough call. I've seen folk stop longer at the scottish and bet they never got fived for similar. If I was observing, it would be a clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorcycleemptyness Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Here is Alexz Wigg on the section in question. Please note how Alexz is really trying to ride the section No-Stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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