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benwibberley

Btc! What's Happened?!

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""There is little to be gained by going back over the same old ground, but neither is there a lot to be gained by people just jumping once"

Is there some hidden implication in the above opening line from yesterdays post?

Cheers

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This is a reply from an organiser of the BTC and i have no axe to grind with JC i think he does a good job (who else would do it just to be critisised )

i personally as coc for the next round, i would prefer to be running under fim rules and whatever they be stop or no stop

we should be the same.

The best thing that that the people that post on here can do is come to Scarborough pay £2.50p admission buy a burger and help to make it viable

A week on monday it will be right or wrong but we will still be putting flags in for the saturday club trial on the 9th.

i personally cant wait to see shaughan running round after browny without a bike its along way round.

Yours in sport

Pat galway

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Reading this from a non Brit perspective, but having seen some bewildering rule changes of late, I sympathise with your riders how such an important turn around can be implemented with out the consultation and approval of the riders it was to effect.

The top boys that are competing in the BTC are the prodigy of the stop allowed system.

The introduction of the stop allowed system, we were told, was designed to bring our young riders fore ward to best set them in a position to compete on the world stage.

Training hard all their careers and developing skills and techniques that rely on the fundamental requirement of stop balancing, stop positioning and pause planning each section at a level very few riders can achieve.

To penalise the cream of your sport in their home Championship, putting them out of step with there peers, has really placed your boys in no mans land.

They have every right to feel let down with the change.

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That is actually a very good question Nigel, and I have to be honest and state that at this point in time I am not exactly sure, and it certainly will not be something that can provide a definitive answer

However, I do think it will leave us in a better position than we were before

For myself for example, I have always tried to keep an open mind on the subject, I still ride, and observe and act as Clerk of Course in trials under both sets of rules. I do not subscribe to the theory that one set is a magic answer and the other rubbish. Both have pro’s and con’s

In past discussions however ( and I have been involved in a hell of a lot) it is often theoretical about one set or another and the examples we have are not always relevant. I doubt if there are many discussions about No-Stop that have not involved mention of SSDT and Scott as examples, and I have always always argued that these do not give a true reflection of situation as they are unique events .

Equally, we have the S3Parts running very well under No-Stop and without many of problems that were feared BUT again there is a separate set of circumstance ie large lap that can take in suitable terrain and so forth

We also have to admit that the S3Parts has never been a “ stepping stone” for our top riders on way to World rounds etc, and is very much aimed at lower order riders, therefore the same criteria cannot always be used for assessment

At the end of 2012 however, I HOPE we will have a true assessment of the No-Stop rules that we can at least form an opinion of – when used at our highest level, which they have not been for may years......etc etc

This is what worries me more than anything as both stop and no stop will claim it has/has not been a success and we will be no further on? I think you alluded to it at the end and my feelng is that an elite short series may be the only way to get the top lads to compete on tough sections in a Btc, and simply accept that these lads are just so much better than the rest it doesnt matter how wide the goal posts are only so many can score from 80 yards away.

Edited by Nigel Dabster
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To penalise the cream of your sport in their home Championship, putting them out of step with there peers, has really placed your boys in no mans land.

They have every right to feel let down with the change.

I don't think anyone is trying to hobble the top riders, and see the changes being made are an effort to allow more riders to compete when numbers are falling.

My take on this, going back to a format that is probably more popular with the over forty's riders that rode that style when it was the way everyone competed. The younger generations who grew up riding stop and hop are obviously going to feel the same about what they grew up doing.

I think the change's back and forth over the past decade are not the cure to the problem and seem neither side will give one way or the other a chance, been there done that, didn't work then won't now.

From what I can gather the latest changes are an effort to allow more riders to take part by easing the sections while still taking points of the best riders with a stricter way of scoring, which seems to work for some but not other's.

So why not apply both systems.

If a five for a stop is deemed too harsh, then change it to one for each dab taken, one for a back up, one for a hop, ease the sections and allow each ride 1,2,3,4, 5th your done attempt at each section.

Only way to clean a section is by a feet up no stop ride, trick riding is allowed but costs a dab / infraction, both the rider and observer may be more inclined to give and except a penalty point over a failure for the same mistake under the current format.

I don't know if it would work or not, but do know the many times the rules have changed back and forth haven't seemed to done any good.

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I think maybe continual tweaking of the BTC is possibly not the answer and maybe 2012 will show this to be a watershed.

S3 works well

Normandales work well

I assume Sammy Millers also go ok.

BTC is struggling to satisfy many and not nesessarily doing it - Jack of all trades etc.

The suggestions have been made before but maybe its the best way forward.

Knock the current BTC on the head altogether!.

Have a 4 or 5 round series just for the top boys - maybe an Indoor format outdooors on semi natural sections, charge entrance and run as profesional series. Maybe open to internationals and run as a british open.

Accept it won't pay for itself on entry fees olone so needs subsidising through sponsorship, license levy etc and make it a real flag ship event.

Get behind the other series to fill the gaps left by no expert A etc at BTC.

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I think maybe continual tweaking of the BTC is possibly not the answer and maybe 2012 will show this to be a watershed.

S3 works well

Normandales work well

I assume Sammy Millers also go ok.

BTC is struggling to satisfy many and not nesessarily doing it - Jack of all trades etc.

The suggestions have been made before but maybe its the best way forward.

Knock the current BTC on the head altogether!.

Have a 4 or 5 round series just for the top boys - maybe an Indoor format outdooors on semi natural sections, charge entrance and run as profesional series. Maybe open to internationals and run as a british open.

Accept it won't pay for itself on entry fees olone so needs subsidising through sponsorship, license levy etc and make it a real flag ship event.

Get behind the other series to fill the gaps left by no expert A etc at BTC.

This could be one of the best suggestions so far?

Two sets of rules, indoor/arena stop allowed and outdoor non stop for all other trials. The select few indoor/arena events staged for anyone wishing to compete in FIM series abroad.

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This is a red herring why do all trials have to go no stop?

Its not the point of the discussion here, and you contiually miss the point again mentioned a few posts up that the youngsters brought up on stop allowed prefer it to stay.

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This is what worries me more than anything as both stop and no stop will claim it has/has not been a success and we will be no further on? I think you alluded to it at the end and my feelng is that an elite short series may be the only way to get the top lads to compete on tough sections in a Btc, and simply accept that these lads are just so much better than the rest it doesnt matter how wide the goal posts are only so many can score from 80 yards away.

Totally and utterly agreed Nigel thats EXACTLY what should have been done years ago. What they do and are capable of bears NO relevance to what the grass routes of the sport needs.

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Clubs, centres etc can and shoulld be able to choose what rules they want to ride (event by event if it suits)- it works so why argue and change utopia. I ride stop allowed, no stop and have even ridden a few Time trials where marking is 0,3,5.its not an issue changing so long as you know before you start.

Only thing that has changed is the rules for the BTC and thats what is being discussed as I see it.

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its not just stop or no stop, its the other conditions as well eg no big steps in sections, champ/class sections eased to expert A type sections, no minders, the acu admitted at the btc meeting the top riders were getting a poor deal (why has that to be the case ) every rider should have somthing to enjoy in the trial.

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and they will be right Equally, if those who are totally against the No-Stop rules are able to show the pitfalls,

Firstly I am not opposed to no-stop ( i have an open mind on it) but the obvious 'pit-fall' is the availability of suitable terrain. Its much easier to throw in a tight turn into a step or something to make it harder for the better riders but when you cant do that what sensible options are there ? When I've marked out sections, I want to make the section challenging but enjoyable and its hard if the available terrain isn't there.

For JC - Atomant - AKA Ian Beardsall

Edited by AtomAnt

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I've volunteered my services for the SDMC round next weekend. I consider myself to be a reasonably experienced observer and have observed BTC rounds in previous years although never using no-stop rules. I don't know whether I'll be asked to observe, timekeep or help out in some other way but just in case I've taken the time to familiarise myself with the letter of the law as far as the ACU rulebook is concerned since I've been away from the sport for a couple of years. After reading this discussion it occurs to me that the only practical approach to observing the event will be to apply the rules absolutely as written, regardless of the section layout and deal with any rider dissent politely but robustly.

Having said that, I'll obviously respect any and all guidance provided by the CoC during the observer's briefing but going by previous experience at SDMC events I expect a very professional and pragmatic approach and given all of the opinions being fed back from the previous couple of rounds, I don't see how anything but a black and white approach can be taken.

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I went to the Trial and asked around. The "Opinions" were from the people who had seen Graham and talked to him and had seen what was going on. These were the people who volunteered and actually DO "Give up their own Time". The Importers if they did as you state didn't do that good a job. As for "giving up their own time", Trials is pretty much THEIR JOB. The other thing is WHY haven't they been there in the past if they felt it so important? John has pretty much confirmed that the Importers have wanted "No-Stop" and pestered everybody until they got it.

I again ask the question. If that is what they wanted why haven't they put the money in to Sponsor a BTC under "No-Stop"?

Sorry but I don’t agree with this at all. First of all graham WASNT CoC, but thats irrelevant. Secondly, the importers: I’m sure their job shouldn’t entail marking out sections for the BTC. Why should they sponsor the series when the series already has a (neutral) sponsor? I think their sponsorship is reflected in their team riders that are riding for us mere mortals to enjoy watching. As long as I have watched the BTC, Malcolm and Shirty have been in attendance with Nigel and John at selected others. Perhaps you have been to more events than they have so have more experience and knowledge of riding and setting out trials and therefore you are right in telling them what they should and shouldn’t be doing. Will you be helping mark out and organise your clubs BTC round, passing on your knowledge? I think it is much more constructive that the importers are getting involved and trying to make it work, rather than sitting at their pc criticising it.

I was the Steward at Westwood last year, and if those who are now telling us all how wonderful it was , this is not the actual case. I know the complaints I received , including from some top riders, I know the concerns that were expressed by a few about safety in one section. Like I said earlier , no two events will be the same regardless of rules

:agreed:

The previous year round wasn’t as good as some would have us believe. However it was better organised. But I went with a group of friends to watch and we all still left in less than 3 hours. For those of us that need reminding here are the links to the results:

Championship

http://www.trialscen...%20Class%20.pdf

Support

http://www.trialscen...h%20Classes.pdf

Any trial where riders such of such calibre as Haslam, Danby and Richardson drop over a 100 is not going to encourage riders to support the event. I went this year with an open mind and would not say that this year’s event was better but it certainly wasn’t worse. I was entertained enough to stay until the end at least.

I would like to see people stop being so negative and support the series and give it a genuine chance for the remainder of the rounds. Then we may be able to tell if the changes have been successful. If they haven’t, by the end of the series, then at least we can say that we tried it. Personally I am looking forward to the Scarborough round. The trials I have watched there have generally been good (with the exception being down to the weather) and I have fond memories of riding there in the past. I am certainly expecting it to be better organised and the land is much more suitable for a BTC. So as the CoC for the event said; go there to support the event and go there with an open mind instead of all this negativity.

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Excellent post. I agree there and I am looking forward to Scarborough as I have been riding there since I was a kid. Barring the icy trial which was too hard the trials and organisation are usually spot on. In my opinion the best piece of land in the series by far and should make an excellent trial.

As for the championship in general, no point whingeing about the rules as they won't change this year and we have had 2 totally diverse rounds so nobody knows if it's a success or not and won't until the end of the year.

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