martin belair Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 On one hand the no stop rule is partially designed to improve spectator turnout From the FIM Press Release: "With the aim of making Trial more accessible , reducing the level of the sections, creating more dynamism, reducing the costs and increasing more practice and participation" Noel, where do you get your info? Read the FIM press release. NOWHERE does it say spectators. Part of the problem in having a productive discussion is the mis-information that people have swallowed. I am not saying that this is a magic bullet that will fix everything in the sport. But our sport is at near extinction levels in some areas. The factories are hurting. The world market for all brands was 10,000 bikes, now it is half of that. Everyone is so focused on the No Stop thing, we must look at the big picture and try to create a healthy future for the sport. Tell b40rt how many riders you get at one of your WOTA events. maybe 20 ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernnorm Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 (edited) I may have assumed wrongly that "participation" is limited to riding entries. WOTA runs from 16 to 36 riders ,just a few short years ago on the flattest terrain imaginable (site of baraboo hills classic after all the good stuff was put in a conservancy) we had like 56 max .UMTA is still rockin with 40 plus riders often, even with like 18 events per year ,not sure how they do it . The main point about this rule is why didnt the concern of the WTC riders come into the picture= as far as I know it is just being forced on them with little concern for what they prefer.Also if you want to have a look at pushing the envelope to whats possible with a modern light powerful trials bike go to rypusa.com and watch Pats freeride vid of Sherco v.s. Monty =the nosepick rollback is sweet and even more unbelievable is his floating whip to 180 on front wheel , up on a 10 foot tower. sick as H somewhere I saw his footage of a massive tree bonk to 180 off ,and a rear wheel tree tap 6 or 10 feet up , this stuff is so inspiring you can not ,not be amazed. Risk=huge Reward ??????? ! Edited February 16, 2013 by northernnorm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laser1 Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 (edited) I really dont see how a rule, where there are more people against it, than for it, will do anything but reduce participation. I don't see how any valid governing body defines the rules around unfounded claims and unsupported sales policy. If they really feel they need to to do it, they should use a transparent and data driven process to help people accept it. That has certainly not been the case here. Now that they have received such a cold reception to the idea, why wouldnt they quickly set everyone straight on the "sound" logic of the change. Haven't seen it, so I get more and more polarized against it and believe others are too. If it really is the manufacturers that are for this, how come they have been relatively mum on it. Does anyone have any recent press release from a European mfg that welcomes this change with open arms, and states how it will help? OK - I get they save the cost of a minder, but will that save the industry? Sales wise, shouldn't the market speak for itself. Haven't agile, light weight bikes out sold the over priced, heavy ones for many years now? Im all for reduced costs - especially if that means cheaper bikes. Is there a production rule coming? Isnt that a proven recipe used by many other forms of motorsports to reduce racing costs. OK, Maybe it wont work in trials - I don't have specific data on it, but if I was making wholesale changes to the rules - I sure as heck would! With so many people now "rooting" for the failure of this policy - including the top riders, it seems unwise that the FIM just continues to blindly steer into the storm. Edited February 16, 2013 by laser1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernnorm Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 (edited) RIGHT ON WHAT HE SAID thumbs up 2 you . Why should the riders not have input? Edited February 16, 2013 by northernnorm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernnorm Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 If the goal is to gather more "common man" participation the ban of tight one piece suits seems a logical start. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1shy Posted February 17, 2013 Report Share Posted February 17, 2013 Today I was out building a Novice/Intermediate section that I thought looked fun for club trials, after I got it sorted I got my bike and test ride, it was a bit clarted in mud but couldn't clean it riding no stop, I could clean it if I stopped and hopped the front end but I wanted a section that reflects the abilities of those who will be riding it, so eased the section enough that it could be ridden with full lock turns and no stop. This applies to any level of the sport, and providing the section is set for those riding and scored to the no stop rules then they will have to be eased. As for the world and national championship, all those few top riders do for me is make the bike and spares cost more, with the majority of the many rule changes back and forth also accredited to the same few top riders at any given decade over the past thirty years. If it all fell flat on it's ass tomorrow, no more bikes or championships because it is no longer financially feasible, I dare say it wouldn't be long before riders would be converting trail bikes and running events and sections that allows them the same amount of enjoyment they get now with a lot less crap. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 17, 2013 Report Share Posted February 17, 2013 Today I was out building a Novice/Intermediate section that I thought looked fun for club trials, after I got it sorted I got my bike and test ride, it was a bit clarted in mud but couldn't clean it riding no stop, I could clean it if I stopped and hopped the front end but I wanted a section that reflects the abilities of those who will be riding it, so eased the section enough that it could be ridden with full lock turns and no stop. This applies to any level of the sport, and providing the section is set for those riding and scored to the no stop rules then they will have to be eased. As for the world and national championship, all those few top riders do for me is make the bike and spares cost more, with the majority of the many rule changes back and forth also accredited to the same few top riders at any given decade over the past thirty years. If it all fell flat on it's ass tomorrow, no more bikes or championships because it is no longer financially feasible, I dare say it wouldn't be long before riders would be converting trail bikes and running events and sections that allows them the same amount of enjoyment they get now with a lot less crap. Exactly finally someone has got the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hensley Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Northern mom, This thread is the typical pontification by older guys, with Viagra enhanced rose colored glasses of days gone by, telling everyone that in the "good old days" that we should go back to. Yeah, I believe these same guys still don't like to admit that their parents had sex, and that it wasn't stoic, or without lust, like we see even on TV nowdays. Sorry, no stop was an "era" kind of like race cars having to be based on actual cars people drive to work. The bitching about long lines, is bullcrap, when you have 100+ riders, there are going to be lines. Even back in the "good ol days" if a section is particularly tough, the lines get even longer. Get over this idea, for god's sake, that you shouldn't have to wait your turn? By god, I live in a town that has less than 1500 people in it, I get ticked off when I have to wait at a stop-sign for more than one car to go by, Imagine how I deal, when I get to a bigger city and there are thousands of cars, DON'T even ask me to take you to the malls! But I tell ya, I'm laughing my butt off about the "imagine the movie, guy stopped with foot down" you think a video like that is going to be released? HA!? I mean lets get real, it isnt 1960 we can edit, and no scene anymore last more than a "one one thousand" count, because everyone watching has ADD/ADHT. But, in an argument I have my version of the same crapy video... I can see the same "shot" that would be on the cutting room floor, so to speak. Here's how it goes. A rider (the only one in line) enters the section, music from "on any sunday in the background" Announcer's voice, who sounds like the guy from kickstart.... "Just look at Jeffrey, on his advanced 2003 designed, 2014 Honda 4rt struggling to get through a rather typical, tough section..." He's shown dabbing 49 times, going at it "no stop" charging up a hostile creek section... and the announcer continues, "well, Jeffrey just saved himself 2 points, by getting a 3 for his effort... Good job Jeffrey" The only way "trials" is going to be anything like the glorified fond memories of the 'good old days' is going to happen, is when we ban trials bikes. Honda will produce a clone of a 68 Norton commando, since they wont have to retool much from the 4rt, lol, and we'll effectively have to BAN nose wheelies and anything deemed "advanced techniques" which surfaced after 1979... Great post sting pretty much sums it up Surely this nonsense wont take root here in the U.S. but just in case we had better ride all the club events central regionals and Nationals before the Kaos starts. The beauty of the sport is i can have still have a great time just riding on the farm if those hell bent on dividing the sport and choose to ruin all competitions. Seems like there is always someone to whatever part of life it is that wants to ad unenforcable rules and regulations. Im an old guy who can only balance for two maybe three seconds before my foot goes down but you know what there is a class for me and i dont need to impose on those who can. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) Great post sting pretty much sums it up Surely this nonsense wont take root here in the U.S. but just in case we had better ride all the club events central regionals and Nationals before the Kaos starts. The beauty of the sport is i can have still have a great time just riding on the farm if those hell bent on dividing the sport and choose to ruin all competitions. Seems like there is always someone to whatever part of life it is that wants to ad unenforcable rules and regulations. Im an old guy who can only balance for two maybe three seconds before my foot goes down but you know what there is a class for me and i dont need to impose on those who can. Yep, some of the older riders may have to ride "down a class" and no longer be labeled "Expert". The sport has progressed and evolved past their current abilities. Hopefully I live and can ride long enough for that to happen to me. It is a bit of a hit to the ego, but it happens to all of us. I ride Advanced but there are gentlemen in the MOTA Senior class that I would be unable to beat riding the same Senior line as them. They are just so damn good and smooth after so many years riding. But they would not be able to beat me riding Advanced lines because it is a different set of skills. Why should we limit everyone to using only one set of skills for the sport? "Lower" class sections typically can be ridden No stop. "higher" class sections Usually lend themselves to Stop and Hop. Stop and balance = 0 Stop with foot down = 5 Make all riders understand the observer has final say = DO NOT argue with the observer. Make all observers understand the need for consistency = NO special stop counts for certain riders, all riders get same 1 sec or 20 second count. Just be consistent and then all the riders are scored the same for that section. preferably entire event. Problem solved Edited February 21, 2013 by zippy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineaway Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 I have to agree more with Zippy every time I read his posts. I am for no stop mainly to get rid of the all day dab. (Formally a 5 since you are no longer riding!! All these `new` riders whining about getting a 5. Try actually being in control.) My son plays basketball. (All year!) I think the chest pound the refs do while counting could easily be adopted to our sport. It would be fair, seen by all and easily taught to a scorer. My opinion would be a three count for any stop of forward motion. It would take away a quick five,give the rider a chance to continue and everyone watching would know when the 5 would be called. Foot down or not. Three seconds and go or die! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outlaw dave Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 An interesting thread, and as the guy that introduced some of the latest WTC rules in Canada, I find many of the posts quite entertaining, Of course at age 75, I get a chuckle out of comments made about old farts ! - I wonder how many events would take place if it wasn't for the old guys? As I see it - our sport now has two different types of event. - there is the spectator friendly indoor style, which caters to the trick riders, and the outdoor arena, that still attracts the average guy or gal, wanting a nice day out in the woods - maybe a campout with the kids, and a chance to practice what the original concept was way back in 1909 - balance the bike while keeping your feet on the footpegs. The WTC or Canadian way, is to try to put on events that cater to everybody - local club's are allowed, to adjust classes, etc for their region, while National Championship Trials, must follow the WTC rulebook, to the letter. - Not that this is an easy task, as just as on this forum, everybody seems to have a different opinion on how to interpret the rules. To blame the FIM for being out of touch, is I think a bit harsh, as are similar comments about the factories wanting the changes so that they can sell more bikes. - At the end of the day, 90% of all Trials riders are out there for the fun, and as far as I can tell, most new blood is coming from Enduro riders who want to ride like Graham Jarvis ( or Cody Webb) The new No Stop rules, will only work, if Trials Masters ( Clerks of the course) have a good sense of what is possible at the various class levels, and ajust the degree of difficulty to suit. - Longer loops can make events enjoyable for all, while still featuring a variety of natural obstacles to test all abilities. - For the Hop & Bop guys - clubs can fit shorter around the parking lot style Trials, into their schedule, so that everybody gets to ride what they prefer. - and yes in our North Country Trials, we do have the odd 3rd gear splat, but we also have cambered turns that often take points from so called Experts. In the 1970's the Japanese were misled into thinking that Trials was going to be a huge spectator sport - in the year 2013, we are faced with World sections that only the top three or four riders can even get through - what is the point or future in that? - Is returning to the grass roots of "No Stop" the answer? - I guess we will all have a better idea at the end of the season. - In the meantime, this old fart has a busy year ahead planning a Canadian National, that will likely see around 60-70 riders attend. - - they will come because they like what we do, we won't be using the No Stop rules, but will be enforcing the five minute stationary dab, which in my opinion only makes sense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckindenver Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) 90% of off road riders today have no clue what Trials is, over 40 riders maybe do to on any sunday. that being said. most if not all Trials clubs are guilty of the so called secret squirrel club attitude. as a newbie you would have to do a couple days searching via bike shops, and the net to find the club, then even more to get a sced, then...unless your good at GPS reading find the event, and maybe,,,just maybe if your lucky...find a couple other riders that would welcome a new person into the club. yea yea,..i know....ooooh we all welcome new riders,. ok whatever...why is it that most times, when i see a new rider, or one thats been out for a while, i make an effort to shake hands, and welcome them... and see no one else doing so, this has been an on going issue with the sport, to some respect or another. so, if FIM , NATC or AMA or who ever really want more riders, more interest....try this get a booth at every off season event you can,. be it arena cross, monster trucks, sportsman shows ect,, have flyers made up with your Clubs event sced, have fun days with a trials school, hosted by friendly advanced and up level riders... set a kids section at every event, make an effort to get those kids on bikes, be they electric, gas or strider level, if we would make an effort to step out of the shadows of the secret squirrel club,..and let the common riders know who and what we are, and when a new rider shows, make sure we make them welcome into our family of trials....i guarantee we would have more interest, more checkers, and a bigger involvment in the sport.. changing rules, will do nothing but drive what riders we have to other venues...iv seen it time and time again....i remember AHRMA was the king of vintage....now what happen? egos, and lack of growth, all but killed AHRMA... they had less then 30% of the classes with no rider to get year end awards...blind rulings, by people that dont even like or ride Trials... how may times have you been at a gas station with your modern bike on a trailer or hitch rack, and have someone ask.....what kinda bike is that? why dont it have a seat? every time i go out, i get that.. if you put the sport out there, more people will want to ride, more riders, more bikes, chase riders away,,less riders....less bikes...basic math some back ground...every year, i spend well over 50 grand for the pleasure of dropping a 9,000.00 Italian motorcycle in the rocks, and take a chance at destroying my body with a hard fall, i also Take the time and spend my own money to Trials master at least 2 events, one modern and one vintage, so that my friends can enjoy dropping high dollar European motorcycles in the rocks... i also enjoy vintage Trials, so i take the time to restore a rare museum piece, and drop it in the rocks as well.. to find other riders that want to spend that type of money, and time..takes marketing. not a rule change...want to get the common man to ride FIM? make 2 more classes, below the Pro level they have right now...i would ride, as well as others that would love the chance to ride a world round, some would even travel all over the world to do so, spend money, to drop a motorcycle in the rocks.. Edited February 22, 2013 by chuckindenver 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scot taco Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 You make a lot of good points Chuck.I put an advert on craigslist in the motorcycle section last night to try and stir up some interest.I,ve had three people reply today wanting to know more about it and the club.I think the guys running are club try to promote because I did see a booth they had set up at the last dual sport,but hey,every little bit helps.I think one of the main points you made that I like is to show new riders that they are welcome,appreciated and to offer advice. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckindenver Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 so, yesterday i worked with someone that thinking about riding in the world round, i set some sections that were tough no stop, he could clean them easy riding stop, took a few times, and some arm pump to make them no stop. we played with a couple splatters, and he rode them no stop, very fun to watch.. not so impressive to watch a rider i know can ride big stuff, ride basic expert not pro level sections no stop. his words.....no stop sux. i agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 so, yesterday i worked with someone that thinking about riding in the world round, i set some sections that were tough no stop, he could clean them easy riding stop, took a few times, and some arm pump to make them no stop. we played with a couple splatters, and he rode them no stop, very fun to watch.. not so impressive to watch a rider i know can ride big stuff, ride basic expert not pro level sections no stop. his words.....no stop sux. i agree Never nice to find out your not as good as you thought you were ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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