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One For The Americans

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4 hours ago, ChrisCH said:

There is a global shift to a mostly right wing viewpoint that is rooted in climate change denial.  It is not about the level of taxation and welfare benefits, those policies are legitimate political opinions and have traditionally had parties espousing one view or another with a proper democratic choice for voters to take.  These should be no animosity or violence regarding a genuine political decision about taxation policies or about the level of legitimate regulation in society.

Trump is part of a worldwide group of people in positions of very high power and influence that are exacerbating the problem rather than seeking remedial action.  Mr Trump might "dig" coal but the planet does not.  You must include such people as Steve Bannon and Rupert Murdoch in as well as the financial backers, Koch, Barclay and the like.  There are lobby groups spreading lies and disinformation to people to undermine any attempt to rein in the use of fossil fuel.

It is not about Mr Trump per se, it is about the battle between the need to keep the life support system for our species and the short term profits that can be generated by overlooking the destruction.  Wildfires rage in Australia, in the US and in the Artic.  The evidence is so overwhelming that denial is now more an indication of mental illness than a rational debate.

Our UK government is part of this destructive group.  Despite our Prime Minister being a liar and a con artist he still enjoys support from a large minority who suspend their intelligence enough to buy into the lie.  Having taken an irrational decision to do something stupid beyond belief it is hard to admit it was a mistake.

So much could be done so easily without the need for all of us to live like third world paupers but even the slightest inconvenience is just too much for the "culture warriors".  Witness the protests about the perfectly sensible precaution of wearing a mask in a public place.  That idiotic protest is not confined to the US or to the MAGA hat wearing simpletons, it is global.  This minor imposition to prevent people dying in the most horrible way is "against people's rights" we are told.  Presumably the right to kill your grandmother.

This is not a path we can follow without serious civil unrest and violence.  It is stoked and encouraged by the protagonists, of whom Mr Trump is just one.  If he just proposed low tax and an absence of welfare I doubt anyone much outside the US would pay him much attention.  If he did not subvert democracy (as is happening here too) he would, I am sure be regarded much better than he is.  If my government were not liars breaking international law and their own agreements I guess no one much outside Europe would care.  If Bolsonaro stopped cutting down the rainforest I guess no one much outside Latin America would take much notice.  But all these tin pot rulers added together threaten us all.  Everywhere.

OK, so I call you out.  Essentially you deem no where a viable place to live.  Add to this, you have very anti government concerns, yet you can not provide the answer to the problem you bring up.  

Yesterday I got information sent to me about how wind turbines are killing 600,000 birds annually.  So it seems even wind energy is now bad.

Your concerns for the environment are obvious, however, these politicians also tend to understand that a country in poverty is bad also.  Poverty either on account of no resources or in some cases, manufacturing being sent to countries that change less and it seems ironic they care far less about the environment and the health of the workers.

As the sun rises today for you in the UK, I doubt the world has stopped spinning and life goes on as it did yesterday.  Can I suggest you redirect away from the woe is all of us to a more hands on way to find an answer.  These posts have shown improvements can be made, but short of removing industrialization from the entire planet there is no current good answer.

Politics have endured longer than industry.  Industry has seen many phases.  In those phases, people realized there were concerns and improvements have been made.  Those improvements never stop, they simply have not found the ultimate answer yet, and when they do, it will never be good enough. 

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The only sensible answer is to remove us from this planet. Good Luck. But they almost accomplished it this year, or was it just a test run? They do have another virus that has more than a 75% mortality rate. Think on that for a second. This year they proved just how ill prepared we actually are. And also proved how ignorant we have become with all of us with conflicting opinions. These problems started centuries ago and we have the simple minded people thinking it is the fault of our current politicians.

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4 hours ago, totty79 said:

..This results in insults and aggression which further stifles debate. Take the post above for example so much really sound content but with a few insults mixed in so anyone disagreeing won't engage sensibly.

 

I think this is a fair point, but I would also say we have long past the sensible debate point.  You are right that people are fed more of the same on media like facebook and this does make it hard to start from an agreed objective fact.

The "sensible debate" about climate change took place what 20, 30 maybe even 40 years ago.  The time to change our energy policies and move to a greener more renewable future was probably in the mid 80s.  By now most of the technologies would be mainstream and unremarkable.  The big solar power station in the desert powering Las Vegas would be held up as a triumph of US engineering and ingenuity and an example to the world.  The one outside Dubai would make hydrogen that created water in people's homes in their fuel cell, the gas piped underground like natural gas is in the rest of the world.

The first actual real big desert solar thermal is in Morocco (https://www.ecohz.com/renewable-energy-solutions/powerplants/noor-solar-power-in-morocco/) .  We are going to have to go some to play catch up with this world leading country.

The exasperation with the laggards and the deniers and the obfuscaters is a large part of why it quickly turns to a mud slinging contest.  The repetition of points that are quite frankly stupid tend to make a person think the other guy making them is actually stupid and so the mud flies.  You are right of course, it doesn't help.  But it is a very human reaction to constantly being told something is a fact when it is a stupid lie.  Mr Trump has called climate change a Chinese hoax, together with his quip about the "kung flu" (to be fair almost amusing) - all part of the culture war on China.  When you see people lapping it up it really is almost impossible not to be a little rude.

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You guys just do not have the land. Our small state of 3 million people produce more green energy than you can imagine. And we are one of the poorest states in the USA!

357 MW of wind

237 MW of solar and tripling soon!

https://www.pnm.com/solar1

Edited by lineaway

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5 hours ago, lineaway said:

You guys just do not have the land. Our small state of 3 million people produce more green energy than you can imagine. And we are one of the poorest states in the USA!

357 MW of wind

237 MW of solar and tripling soon!

https://www.pnm.com/solar1

Not exactly sure what entities own those power generating capabilities, but a decade ago, I was very impressed to learn, via friend that worked for Florida Power and Light, that she living here in Florida was accomplishing oil analysis for FPL wind turbines in the USA Midwest.

Additionally, it is now more common to see FPL solar farms instead of more housing or outlet malls along the highways.  Kind of impressive to see collectors covering a huge area.

When I visit the towns I grew up in along the Massachusetts coast, very common to see wind turbines.

Possibly that when the technology is presented, the lag to get these systems fabricated and in place may be a factor also.  No doubt money and profits are key points too. 

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12 hours ago, ChrisCH said:

I think this is a fair point, but I would also say we have long past the sensible debate point.  You are right that people are fed more of the same on media like facebook and this does make it hard to start from an agreed objective fact.

The "sensible debate" about climate change took place what 20, 30 maybe even 40 years ago.  The time to change our energy policies and move to a greener more renewable future was probably in the mid 80s.  By now most of the technologies would be mainstream and unremarkable.  The big solar power station in the desert powering Las Vegas would be held up as a triumph of US engineering and ingenuity and an example to the world.  The one outside Dubai would make hydrogen that created water in people's homes in their fuel cell, the gas piped underground like natural gas is in the rest of the world.

The first actual real big desert solar thermal is in Morocco (https://www.ecohz.com/renewable-energy-solutions/powerplants/noor-solar-power-in-morocco/) .  We are going to have to go some to play catch up with this world leading country.

The exasperation with the laggards and the deniers and the obfuscaters is a large part of why it quickly turns to a mud slinging contest.  The repetition of points that are quite frankly stupid tend to make a person think the other guy making them is actually stupid and so the mud flies.  You are right of course, it doesn't help.  But it is a very human reaction to constantly being told something is a fact when it is a stupid lie.  Mr Trump has called climate change a Chinese hoax, together with his quip about the "kung flu" (to be fair almost amusing) - all part of the culture war on China.  When you see people lapping it up it really is almost impossible not to be a little rude.

Do you have any statistics or data that lists global countries and ranks them on a standardized comparison per person regarding energy, pollution etc?

It would be easier to follow comparing apples to apples.  Not any kind of get out of jail free card, merely what countries are efficient and which are not.

I will add though that often I see here in Florida that people from other countries, whether tourists or immigrant citizens tend to have far less respect for cleanliness, pollution, even simple littering by tossing trash to the ground, than those of us that have been here for generations.  Difficult to understand, but suspect the countries they left were simply dirty and it was unimportant to them.

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3 hours ago, pmk said:

Do you have any statistics or data that lists global countries and ranks them on a standardized comparison per person regarding energy, pollution etc?

It would be easier to follow comparing apples to apples.  Not any kind of get out of jail free card, merely what countries are efficient and which are not.

I will add though that often I see here in Florida that people from other countries, whether tourists or immigrant citizens tend to have far less respect for cleanliness, pollution, even simple littering by tossing trash to the ground, than those of us that have been here for generations.  Difficult to understand, but suspect the countries they left were simply dirty and it was unimportant to them.

As before, I can give you a whole list of reasons why such data is not available or reliable.  The per capita analysis would also be somewhat misleading.  If you are looking to see which countries are leaders in renewable energy you will find that those for whom it is commercially sensible to be so are and vice versa.  For example Iceland has a huge geo-thermal power output and is therefore high in the renewable energy league.  Your earlier comment also shows that much more granularity is needed as in the US there is huge discrepancy between the states, many of which are as big as a country in other parts of the world.  (That's true of Australia also).

China always ranks badly in any such comparison.  But this is because the west has outsourced its production and resultant pollution and CO2 to China.  Any meaningful comparison needs to take this into account and include imported CO2.  If you do so the USA tends to be the world's biggest source of human generated fossil CO2.  To some extent that also is a bit skewed as the biggest CO2 source in the US is actually the military.  In my view all of us live on the same planet and all of us need to do better, yank-bashing is not the answer.  The US could cut military spending and save a few billion dollars tax payers' money and go green at the same time.  I doubt the Russians are going to invade, after all they paid for Trump's election campaign.

I hate litter as well and think it is a sign of disrespect for the environment.  As a very sweeping generalisation visitors from outside the area tend to litter things like wrappers and drinks cans most - I live near a national park and see that.  However we have had a huge problem with domestic garbage (refrigerators etc) as a feature of the growth of government restrictions and costs on waste disposal as we run out of landfill sites.  It is a complex problem and not just about incomers or immigrants - that is to miss the point IMHO.  I think you are correct that people who dump litter see it as unimportant, but mostly they are selfish and childish and want someone else to clean up after them.  Where I live these are local people.

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2 hours ago, ChrisCH said:

As before, I can give you a whole list of reasons why such data is not available or reliable.  The per capita analysis would also be somewhat misleading.  If you are looking to see which countries are leaders in renewable energy you will find that those for whom it is commercially sensible to be so are and vice versa.  For example Iceland has a huge geo-thermal power output and is therefore high in the renewable energy league.  Your earlier comment also shows that much more granularity is needed as in the US there is huge discrepancy between the states, many of which are as big as a country in other parts of the world.  (That's true of Australia also).

China always ranks badly in any such comparison.  But this is because the west has outsourced its production and resultant pollution and CO2 to China.  Any meaningful comparison needs to take this into account and include imported CO2.  If you do so the USA tends to be the world's biggest source of human generated fossil CO2.  To some extent that also is a bit skewed as the biggest CO2 source in the US is actually the military.  In my view all of us live on the same planet and all of us need to do better, yank-bashing is not the answer.  The US could cut military spending and save a few billion dollars tax payers' money and go green at the same time.  I doubt the Russians are going to invade, after all they paid for Trump's election campaign.

I hate litter as well and think it is a sign of disrespect for the environment.  As a very sweeping generalisation visitors from outside the area tend to litter things like wrappers and drinks cans most - I live near a national park and see that.  However we have had a huge problem with domestic garbage (refrigerators etc) as a feature of the growth of government restrictions and costs on waste disposal as we run out of landfill sites.  It is a complex problem and not just about incomers or immigrants - that is to miss the point IMHO.  I think you are correct that people who dump litter see it as unimportant, but mostly they are selfish and childish and want someone else to clean up after them.  Where I live these are local people.

Yes in a few posts back you indicated no accurate data existed.  However, without data regardless of how biased, there tends to be nothing to base anything on except seeing smoking chimney.

You raise points that tend to contradict others in certain ways.  Saying the USA is in part responsible for Chinas pollution is a stretch.  Couple of immediate reasons arise.  This would indicate that no other countries utilize China for goods.  That certainly is in error.  Secondly, China has its own government, and with that hopefully has its own regulations.  Chinas industry apparently is not clean regardless of the country they supply.  Therefore, every country that utilizes any Chinese made goods is to hold blame.

Consider too, and this goes against your Trump hatred, you must place a factual number on the jobs, and industries Trump has actually brought back to the USA, which is a much cleaner output per item, and upholds human rights far better than China does.

Your Iceland example, I have no data on.  I must ask though.  Is Iceland considered a country that is a leader in industry that also exports many items.  In simplest words, does a company in Iceland build the majority of automobiles driven within that country?  If not, then they increase pollution aspects of other countries, possibly unfairly.

Deciding to bring in the US Military as a leader pollution concern is also interesting.  Granted, it is unlikely that the USA will be invaded by Russia.  However, I seem to recall end of the world discussion when a small Korean country had plans to attack its neighbors.  Ironically, this huge polluter showed a presence, which no doubt caused pollution.  With that though, as much of the world expected Trump to begin a nuclear war, it seems he did the opposite.  Then last week, if I am not mistaken, Trump and his team has brought other countries to the table and made progress for peace in areas where that has been difficult in the past.

During his four years, Trump if I am not mistaken, has insisted that countries that utilize not only US equipment, but the lives of our own to defend other these other countries when asked, merely wanted those countries to fulfill debt.  Those countries can never fulfill the debt of even one American killed.  So ask yourself, if the USA simply stayed home, to reduce emissions, then what?

 

Adding to this, you need to learn more regarding the US military.  It has become greener over time and safer for those in service.  Consider that efficient drones are now used to more safely and efficiently gather intel when needed.  Many vehicle are multi fuel capable and fairly efficient in the task they perform.  Many would say the best and safest nuclear reactors and technicians are within the US Navy.  

Since you find it difficult to obtain accurate data regarding countries and per person environmental impacts, I suggest it best to leave out each countries military as you would likely find that the USA ranking is more efficient in per person cleanliness than any other country with a true military.

I am saddened to see the extreme left problem here in the USA has spread so intensely to other countries.  If Trump gets 4 more years in office, that gives you 3 years to accomplish true factual research and present it with adequate time to help me be an informed voter in the 2024 election.  Expect though, as Trump gets results, Pence becomes an even more viable person for the following 8 years, and if she keeps on track, Trumps daughter will likely be the first US woman President after Pence.

Have fun, be safe, a become Greener each day, do not become stagnant in your quest for you and your family to eliminate all that is bad for the planet.

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7 hours ago, pmk said:

Do you have any statistics or data that lists global countries and ranks them on a standardized comparison per person regarding energy, pollution etc?

It would be easier to follow comparing apples to apples.  Not any kind of get out of jail free card, merely what countries are efficient and which are not.

I will add though that often I see here in Florida that people from other countries, whether tourists or immigrant citizens tend to have far less respect for cleanliness, pollution, even simple littering by tossing trash to the ground, than those of us that have been here for generations.  Difficult to understand, but suspect the countries they left were simply dirty and it was unimportant to them.

I am curious as to how you know these people tossing trash on the ground are tourist or immigrants ? Do you go up and ask them where they are from or do they just look non American.

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 Actually he is not wrong. I once was training a guy from Saudi Arabia, we had stopped for a burger at a fast food restaurant for lunch. About 30 miles down the road he launches the bag out the window. I spun around and had him get out. We argued a bit about littering. He could care less, but we were about 240 miles from his home. I would of left him in the middle of the Desert if he did not picked up his trash. He never finished his training. He was raised a total pig. Unfortunately a good share of illegals are the same way. Not that it cannot happen from anyone.

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3 hours ago, pmk said:

...I am saddened to see the extreme left problem here in the USA has spread so intensely to other countries.  ...

There is no extreme left problem in the USA.  Of all the countries in the world where left leaning politics are laughed at the USA laughs the loudest.  The sadness in my view is the inability to want to understand the issues.

The rest of your post reads like an excuse.  A poor one at that.

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4 hours ago, ChrisCH said:

There is no extreme left problem in the USA.  Of all the countries in the world where left leaning politics are laughed at the USA laughs the loudest.  The sadness in my view is the inability to want to understand the issues.

The rest of your post reads like an excuse.  A poor one at that.

Absolutely not an excuse.  I have read your words, understand them and given it some thought.  As I compare them to words others have spoken or posted I see some commonality or alignments.

What you seem to not grasp from my discussion within these posts, I am all in favor of this greener world.  Simply though do not place the burden or blame towards one country or group of people solely.  Without being nasty or mean, I have asked more than once, what seems to be the best solution.  We can all bitch about problems, but truly solving them takes a different way of thinking.

As I see it there is no true solution that can be applied tomorrow to every country, even if politics were removed from the equation.  Overall many people are so self centered in their own ideals and will not compromise or surrender their lifestyle.

However, I do revert back to the concept that over time, major improvements have been made.  We are not at the destination yet, and sadly it is a moving target.  When one group wants it all, and an opposing group wants it all their way, nothing happens.

With that, I will step back from further comments regarding the environment simply because I do not have a viable and nor do you.  I do not oppose your desire for a cleaner greener world, but have yet to see a practical and viable method that can be utilized over many aspects while avoiding tremendous expense, force dramatic lifestyle changes or shut down industry.  It will happen just not yet.

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7 hours ago, scot taco said:

I am curious as to how you know these people tossing trash on the ground are tourist or immigrants ? Do you go up and ask them where they are from or do they just look non American.

What an excellent reply, seriously.

To accurately answer your question, understand I was an instructor of aviation professionals from around the world.  With this, I was able to actually watch first hand, and see which countries set trends of cleanliness vs those that did not.

Locally, I live where we have a large influx of people from South America, Cuba, New York, New Jersey, and Puerto Rico.  You called me out as to how do I know.  You are correct, I can not know 100% of the time.  Suffice to say, people from these areas, not all of them, but many, show little respect for cleanliness.

In similar to what Lineaway mentioned, there have been many times I have asked or told people to pick it up and properly get rid of it.

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6 hours ago, lineaway said:

 Actually he is not wrong. I once was training a guy from Saudi Arabia, we had stopped for a burger at a fast food restaurant for lunch. About 30 miles down the road he launches the bag out the window. I spun around and had him get out. We argued a bit about littering. He could care less, but we were about 240 miles from his home. I would of left him in the middle of the Desert if he did not picked up his trash. He never finished his training. He was raised a total pig. Unfortunately a good share of illegals are the same way. Not that it cannot happen from anyone.

Agree 100%.  Experienced similar myself from similar regions.

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On 9/13/2020 at 3:45 PM, pmk said:

As I see it there is no true solution that can be applied tomorrow to every country, even if politics were removed from the equation.  Overall many people are so self centered in their own ideals and will not compromise or surrender their lifestyle.

That is a truth right there. Traveling the world and working with world economies I can see that Americans are hinged on this culture we can't be wrong and will never fail. Well frankly many of us are flawed and if we don't listen we won't get any further ahead. The perception from afar is that we don't have a cultural norm other than being self centered. Other cultures have their own values which don't align with the US. Germans were implanted with an anti jay walking gene and must not drive in the left lane unless you are overtaking. Many Asian countries think spitting in public is totally cool. Mexicans are perfectly ok with living in tacked together housing. Canadians will apologize for almost anything. Many in the US don't align with others in the US. I grew up in a culture of please and thank you, yes mam and yes sir, I appreciate and am thankful. I was not forced to do this and I wouldn't force others to follow my values. I don't think this is self centered however I do believe in that being a good person, neighbor and overall citizen means that good people will be in my life. Just because I don't understand a culture does not mean I have a right to make fun of it or force my culture down someone else's throat. 

What this country is living with is a leader who is exactly what you said "self centered in their own ideals and will not compromise or surrender their lifestyle". He doesn't care about me or my family based on his actions. He doesn't think he works for the citizens unless we agree with everything he says. If you oppose him you are given a label. He calls the people who put him there terrorist and agitators. This is not a leader. I know bad people and this man is one of them. 

Kindness is not a sign of weakness.

--Biff

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