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One For The Americans

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5 hours ago, lineaway said:

AND Trump said that we would have a covid vaccine, and this morning Pfizer announced they have one that is 90% effective.

lol giving Trump credit for that!!! Scientists and people like me who participated in a clinical trial is how they got there. So why haven't you given any credit to the Germans for their contribution? BioNTech not Murica first enough I see. I am glad to see the Stock market do what fear mongers said it wouldn't. Simple fact is that we have more good people here and we are not going to take credit for the work of smart experts who can do amazing things if we trust in their expertise even if we don't agree. We should count the military votes we should count all votes. 

--Biff

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9 hours ago, bikerpet said:

...I expect there's a very large percentage of his supporters who believe biblical history verbatim, anticipating the future could certainly be difficult coming from that perspective.

..

i read in the UK press that the white evangelical vote held with Trump.  What rather shocked me was the statement that this is one in five US voters.  (Perhaps someone can verify that statistic?)

There is sadly a widespread religious view that we are coming to the "end of times".  This belief is shared by the terrorist group ISIS.  It is (as best I understand it) in the bible and predicts the second coming of Christ in a series of events, many of which resemble current events.   This apocalyptic view is shared by both Christianity and Islam.  The military actions in Syria fit the prediction.  Therefore many believers of this nonsense are indifferent to the catastrophic effects of climate change because they believe the end of times is imminent.  Mr Trump played to the lie with the moving of the US embassy in Israel - the prophesy requires the Jews to return to their "homeland" (which of course was Judea and no longer exists but geography is not a strong point in religion).

As a non religious person the events appear to me to resemble the Branch Davidians in Waco.  Humans see patterns in things, it is in our DNA to do so.  History is littered with events that did not come to pass and the "end of the world" is a quite frequent disappointment to many groups of people.

More worrying is the underlying reality that there are large groups of people in positions of power for whom the destruction of the environment is of no importance as it is God's will.  Thankfully the Chinese are largely unbothered by the nonsense of religion.  Mr Biden's election is a welcome relief from the non-science gibberish that has been a feature of the Trump administration.  Politics aside that is very welcome.

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The rise of fundamentalist religion is, as you suggest, becoming an existential threat.

I found it extraordinary that at this past vote Mississippi chose to replace their flag with a new one with "In God We Trust" emblazoned on it! If that's not discriminatory religious propaganda in an ostensibly secular state I'm not sure what is!

I assume this implies more than 1 in 2 people voted for it, and are therefore Christians with little regard for the beliefs of others in their community. I suspect some of these same people probably take a dim view of places such as Iran where they have a non-secular government. Fine hypocrisy.

All I can think is that trusting in imaginary beings was likely more realistic than trusting Trump. How that plays out now he's unlikely to remain POTUS I don't know. 

At least Mississippi is honestly acknowledging that it is no longer a secular state.

I will restrain myself. 

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2 hours ago, bikerpet said:

...I found it extraordinary that at this past vote Mississippi chose to replace their flag with a new one with "In God We Trust" emblazoned on it! If that's not discriminatory religious propaganda in an ostensibly secular state I'm not sure what is!

..

I have always been led to believe that the US constitution requires the separation of state and religion.  A casual glance shows this is not widely observed.  Maybe my misunderstanding but I agree that the US is theoretically secular.

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Lineaway, as you can easily see, those that make posts telling us with great detail, what they deem as facts, about the place we actually live in, but yet do not reside here themselves, are expressing merely opinions based on what information they are given by others.

These same people posting have their own agendas, based on the desires they have and expect.  As you notice, most of them live in other countries outside the USA, and ironically, they complain about where they live.

A very recent reply indicated the person posting is having concerns about how political decisions made by his own government will likely result in possible difficult times for his country and citizens, regarding trade with Europe.

As good or bad as Donald Trump may be or has been, his actions brought jobs back to the USA for its citizens, jobs the the previous President, Obama stated publicly they were never coming back.

Locally, where we reside in the USA, there is many cultures from other parts of the world.  I have watched, and seen with my own eyes, how the past four years during Trumps Presidency has greatly improved the lives of those deserted by Obama.  Seeing that, it was very strange to drive through those neighborhoods that benefited greatly, and see Biden signs.

Time will tell where this vote count ultimately settles out.  Regardless, it will be a likely ****storm either way.

In regards to the posts here from those residing in other countries.  No doubt, you make your own focus towards what you deem as best.  Hopefully your best is even better for me and where I live.  Seems very unlikely, but whatever.

The USA that you now relegate to a lesser country is a badge posted by you and others.  Unfortunately, what you seldom see is the unity and patriotism that still remains within the USA.  While that Patriotism may be diluted by new arrivals, it still remains a core value to many.  Donald Trump relit, whether as has often been stated as lies, or seen by citizens as truths, he relit Patriotism within the country.

If Biden does get the electoral vote, be it him, Harris or whoever, they will again manipulate the image that any improvements were on account of Obama, and all failures were Trumps.

Those that are watching the stock market as an indicator should do so with caution.  Unless the country is stable, which currently the election has made that impossible, savy investors will drive the market greatly upward, giving this false sense of good, then withdraw without warning.  Politicians will lie about it, news will post doom and gloom, citizens will be impacted, but patriotism will remain.

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1 hour ago, ChrisCH said:

I have always been led to believe that the US constitution requires the separation of state and religion.  A casual glance shows this is not widely observed.  Maybe my misunderstanding but I agree that the US is theoretically secular.

Do you actually understand the basis and intent, plus application regarding separation of church and state?  The USA has many types of spiritual religious groups.  None are based on a single government approved religion.

Unless the religious practices is harmful to citizens, it is typically accepted as freedom of religion.

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3 hours ago, pmk said:

...As good or bad as Donald Trump may be or has been, his actions brought jobs back to the USA for its citizens, jobs the the previous President, Obama stated publicly they were never coming back...

Do you have any reliable sources of data for this?  As a motorcyclist I am well aware that Harley Davidson moved production to Mexico for some of it's output during the Trump administration.  I can see that there was some return of jobs elsewhere but what would be enlightening is the actual net figure of so-called "reshoring".  Of that net figure it would also be enlightening to understand what percentage is due to any administrative or taxation changes that came from the government as opposed to other business reasons.  Within that I am going to guess is a smaller sub set which can be attributed to Mr Trump's actions as opposed to a change from Democrat to Republican administration notwithstanding the leadership thereof.

I rather think that the number arrived at through that process will be very small and as a percentage of the working population of the USA totally insignificant.  Of course for those who benefit directly it is highly significant.  I too would like to see jobs for my country and even a tiny percentage of this nature would be welcome.  However, the real issue is and has been for a long time the use of low cost countries for production that would once have been in developed countries like the US or the UK.  The cost advantages are such that the jobs will never come back, I would hazard a guess that it those jobs mr Obama was referring to.

The nature of the world has changed dramatically during the last 50 years.  Manufacturing has automated and the well paid blue collar jobs of the 1970s have most definitely gone for ever.  Mechanisation and computerisation will continue this trend for the future.  Only in poor countries can the unit labour costs outweigh machinery and even there it is a fast disappearing reality.  Any country wishing to stand proud on the world stage needs to educate its citizens and create a high technology enterprise driven economy.  It needs to do that in harmony with the environment and in a sustainable manner.  Extracting and burning fossil hydrocarbons is yesterday's technology.

Both our countries need to look to the future and its massive potential and not to past glories.  Perhaps you are lucky and the US has turned the corner.  In the UK we are still waiting.

Edited by ChrisCH
spelling

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Speaking of Technology why are all democracies not using on line voting. The country that brought us Facebook,  Instagram,  went to the moon in the 60s etc is still counting paper votes that were posted  rather than put in a ballot box a week after election day ? 

Not that the UK is any better.

Lots of interesting points in this thread but we are all still in our trenches,  no middle ground 🤣

Edited by baldilocks

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And the comedy **** show goes on: 
"Pence breaks silence to take credit for Pfizer vaccine - and drugs company immediately denies Trump involved"

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9 hours ago, pmk said:

Lineaway, as you can easily see, those that make posts telling us with great detail, what they deem as facts, about the place we actually live in, but yet do not reside here themselves, are expressing merely opinions based on what information they are given by others.

These same people posting have their own agendas, based on the desires they have and expect.  As you notice, most of them live in other countries outside the USA, and ironically, they complain about where they live.

...

In regards to the posts here from those residing in other countries.  No doubt, you make your own focus towards what you deem as best.  Hopefully your best is even better for me and where I live.  Seems very unlikely, but whatever.

The USA that you now relegate to a lesser country is a badge posted by you and others.  Unfortunately, what you seldom see is the unity and patriotism that still remains within the USA.  While that Patriotism may be diluted by new arrivals, it still remains a core value to many.  Donald Trump relit, whether as has often been stated as lies, or seen by citizens as truths, he relit Patriotism within the country.

If Biden does get the electoral vote, be it him, Harris or whoever, they will again manipulate the image that any improvements were on account of Obama, and all failures were Trumps.

To be honest pmk I struggle to find a starting point to respond to this, because there are so many possible points to tackle. However I'll try this:

Honduras, Panama, Cuba, Vietnam, Korea, Chile, Argentina, Phillipines, Iran.

This is a highly abbreviated list of countries the USA has directly interfered in the domestic policy and governance, either through diplomatic pressure, financial manipulation (invariably to the benefit of US based corporations), clandestine operations or outright sponsored or direct violence. Usually a combination of all. I've given fairly generous benefit of the doubt in many other cases as to the motives behind interference, such as Iraq where eventually it was obliquely admitted the weapons that justified the invasion did not actually exist.

This short list only includes those countries where the interference has been outstanding in it's virtual annihilation of segments of the domestic political or economic activity, or a large number of lives. In some cases the USA has helped to install tyrants and dictators who have terrorised and murdered their citizens.

This interference has been consistent and ongoing through both Republican and Democrat terms, although I'm inclined to believe the Republicans have pursued these policies slightly more aggressively than the Dems.

Therefore you personally are in some small way accountable for the election of those governments. You personally have contributed to the overthrow of governments, the torture of citizens and the death of thousands in war or civil violence, more so than than an ordinary citizen of probably any other country.

Yet you rail when people from other countries reasonably politely criticise aspects of the processes within the USA that allow and potentially encourage this behaviour. You have indicated that your main concern is what direct personal benefit there is to yourself and other US residents, apparently ignoring the fact that much of what has been said in this thread recently is around making the world a a better place for all. Also ignoring the huge responsibility for actions throughout the world that your elected governments pursue.

The US government affects all of us on this planet very significantly yet we get no say in it's election. Do you still wonder why people from other countries discuss what happens in your country and have strong opinions about it?

It frustrates and infuriates me that so many US citizens seem to have no comprehension of the impact their actions have globally.

For your information, somewhere I have a US Social Security number having lived and worked in the US in years gone by. I'm not totally clueless about what goes on in the US, although I readily admit I'm out of date on personal experience. In the experience I do have, compared to most countries the US citizenry is incredibly ill informed about the world outside their borders (I once had an American say with a completely straight face that it must have been a long drive from Australia to Canada 🤣), they're bordering on xenophobic and the level of national propaganda is such that they have no clue about the extent of the violence and destruction the USA wreaks on other countries.

I don't really doubt that on a personal level you're a nice bloke - you ride trials bikes, you must be 🙂. But please open your eyes to the fact that what you do with your government can be of critical importance to millions of others. Take responsibility for more than your own hip pocket. Trump may have been good for your particular part of the planet, but consider what's been said here - he was a nightmare come true for global stability and moving the world onto a sustainable path. 

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3 hours ago, baldilocks said:

Speaking of Technology why are all democracies not using on line voting.

The US has a fair bit of digital voting and there is a long, long list of issues whereby it fails many of the fundamental tests of accountable, auditable vote casting.

There have been problems with faulty software, hardware failures, lack of sufficient records to be able to verify counts, obstruction by machine vendors to access to source code in order to verify the sufficiency of that code ... the list goes on. The Bush/Gore election (I think it was) hinged partly on a voting machine that had a memory card inserted that was "corrupt" - it removed something like 16,000 votes from the count. That was not immediately detected. Internal emails from the vendor suggested it could have been a corrupt card or it could have been a card that had been tampered with to achieve that result.

It would be nice if we could all vote from the comfort of our home and get a result in minutes, but simple is often good. I'll stick with wandering down to the local school to cast my ballot and enjoy the progress of the tally as it ebbs and flow.

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3 hours ago, bikerpet said:

To be honest pmk I struggle to find a starting point to respond to this, because there are so many possible points to tackle. However I'll try this:

Honduras, Panama, Cuba, Vietnam, Korea, Chile, Argentina, Phillipines, Iran.

This is a highly abbreviated list of countries the USA has directly interfered in the domestic policy and governance, either through diplomatic pressure, financial manipulation (invariably to the benefit of US based corporations), clandestine operations or outright sponsored or direct violence. Usually a combination of all. I've given fairly generous benefit of the doubt in many other cases as to the motives behind interference, such as Iraq where eventually it was obliquely admitted the weapons that justified the invasion did not actually exist.

This short list only includes those countries where the interference has been outstanding in it's virtual annihilation of segments of the domestic political or economic activity, or a large number of lives. In some cases the USA has helped to install tyrants and dictators who have terrorised and murdered their citizens.

This interference has been consistent and ongoing through both Republican and Democrat terms, although I'm inclined to believe the Republicans have pursued these policies slightly more aggressively than the Dems.

Therefore you personally are in some small way accountable for the election of those governments. You personally have contributed to the overthrow of governments, the torture of citizens and the death of thousands in war or civil violence, more so than than an ordinary citizen of probably any other country.

Yet you rail when people from other countries reasonably politely criticise aspects of the processes within the USA that allow and potentially encourage this behaviour. You have indicated that your main concern is what direct personal benefit there is to yourself and other US residents, apparently ignoring the fact that much of what has been said in this thread recently is around making the world a a better place for all. Also ignoring the huge responsibility for actions throughout the world that your elected governments pursue.

The US government affects all of us on this planet very significantly yet we get no say in it's election. Do you still wonder why people from other countries discuss what happens in your country and have strong opinions about it?

It frustrates and infuriates me that so many US citizens seem to have no comprehension of the impact their actions have globally.

For your information, somewhere I have a US Social Security number having lived and worked in the US in years gone by. I'm not totally clueless about what goes on in the US, although I readily admit I'm out of date on personal experience. In the experience I do have, compared to most countries the US citizenry is incredibly ill informed about the world outside their borders (I once had an American say with a completely straight face that it must have been a long drive from Australia to Canada 🤣), they're bordering on xenophobic and the level of national propaganda is such that they have no clue about the extent of the violence and destruction the USA wreaks on other countries.

I don't really doubt that on a personal level you're a nice bloke - you ride trials bikes, you must be 🙂. But please open your eyes to the fact that what you do with your government can be of critical importance to millions of others. Take responsibility for more than your own hip pocket. Trump may have been good for your particular part of the planet, but consider what's been said here - he was a nightmare come true for global stability and moving the world onto a sustainable path. 

In reading your post, it became somewhat apparent that the points you brought forward pretty much align with many Trump supporters.

In simple terms, most Trump supporters are wanting the USA out of other countries, want peace, and are fine with peace if those countries wish to have it, but if those countries prefer to fight, so be it.  Trump has brought home many soldiers.  Trump made other countries step up and pay their fair share.  Seems like a worthwhile way to go about diplomacy.  What I saw it seems Trump did this.

When WWW3 was a panic with N Korea, trying to remember, oh that’s right, Trump dealt with it and no WWW3 happened.  Thought I read a few weeks ago, how the Middle East was agreeing to peace between countries.  Honestly, Trump supporters are not wanting war.

Trump is known as a bully, so what.  If doing so he saved the life of one US soldier, how can that be wrong.  Trump is known as a bully. Seems he was not afraid of the WHO, or the UN, NAFTA or other countries that cried it wasn’t fair.

So what does it all mean, there is a kick ass group of many people in this country that are tired of the USA taking our tax dollars, our soldiers, our technology and whatever else, plastering it as foreign aide to make it justified.

It has been refreshing to read your post, and see how much you do align with Trump supporters here in the USA.

 

Edited by pmk

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4 hours ago, pmk said:

In reading your post, it became somewhat apparent that the points you brought forward pretty much align with many Trump supporters.

In simple terms, most Trump supporters are wanting the USA out of other countries, want peace, and are fine with peace if those countries wish to have it, but if those countries prefer to fight, so be it.  Trump has brought home many soldiers.  Trump made other countries step up and pay their fair share.  Seems like a worthwhile way to go about diplomacy.  What I saw it seems Trump did this.

When WWW3 was a panic with N Korea, trying to remember, oh that’s right, Trump dealt with it and no WWW3 happened.  Thought I read a few weeks ago, how the Middle East was agreeing to peace between countries.  Honestly, Trump supporters are not wanting war.

Trump is known as a bully, so what.  If doing so he saved the life of one US soldier, how can that be wrong.  Trump is known as a bully. Seems he was not afraid of the WHO, or the UN, NAFTA or other countries that cried it wasn’t fair.

So what does it all mean, there is a kick ass group of many people in this country that are tired of the USA taking our tax dollars, our soldiers, our technology and whatever else, plastering it as foreign aide to make it justified.

It has been refreshing to read your post, and see how much you do align with Trump supporters here in the USA.

 

I despair.

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17 minutes ago, pmk said:

In reading your post, it became somewhat apparent that the points you brought forward pretty much align with many Trump supporters.

Maybe the ends, not the means.

In simple terms, most Trump supporters are wanting the USA out of other countries, want peace, and are fine with peace if those countries wish to have it, but if those countries prefer to fight, so be it.  Trump has brought home many soldiers.  Trump made other countries step up and pay their fair share.  Seems like a worthwhile way to go about diplomacy.  What I saw it seems Trump did this.

Maybe. I'm feeling generous.

When WWW3 was a panic with N Korea, trying to remember, oh that’s right, Trump dealt with it and no WWW3 happened. 

Perhaps we live in parallel universes. North Korea has continued to test missiles and develop nuclear and missile capability into this year, including displaying what is possibly the missile capable of carrying the worlds largest nuclear payload. The de-nuclearisation of the peninsula has not progressed, indeed it appears it's gone the other way. To Trump's credit he did meet with Kim and potentially opened a better path to dialog, however I wouldn't by any stretch of the imagination agree that he "dealt with it". There seems little doubt that as soon as either Biden or Trump is in the whitehouse N. Korea will escalate it's weapons testing to ensure it is clearly back on the US agenda. That's not my idea of "dealing with it"! Perhaps that issue also highlights the impact of US activities to other countries - Kim specifically threatened to launch missiles against Australia because we supported Trump and the USA. Thanks Donald for threatening N Korea

Thought I read a few weeks ago, how the Middle East was agreeing to peace between countries.  Honestly, Trump supporters are not wanting war.

Trump is known as a bully, so what.  If doing so he saved the life of one US soldier, how can that be wrong.  Really? Justifying bullying based on positive outcomes for one group of people is a slippery slope indeed! Might there not be another path that doesn't require bullying? Trump is known as a bully. Seems he was not afraid of the WHO, or the UN, NAFTA or other countries that cried it wasn’t fair. Perhaps it wasn't? Although I'm not too sure exactly what you're referring to, no matter though.

So what does it all mean, there is a kick ass group of many people in this country that are tired of the USA taking our tax dollars, our soldiers, our technology and whatever else, plastering it as foreign aide to make it justified.

It has been refreshing to read your post, and see how much you do align with Trump supporters here in the USA.

As I said, perhaps the ends, unlikely the means. And I'm not too sure about the ends either frankly.

I rather think I'm with b40rt.

Still I did have a nice play on my new trials bicycle - I'm even worse at that than I am on the moto!

 

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Interesting to watch, and not so sure this video indicates it is the USA at fault regarding all the ECO stuff.

 

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