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One For The Americans

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1 hour ago, ChrisCH said:

That is the issue.  Not the actual size of the world's population right here and now, but the massive legacy problem we have created and the fact that there is now a huge queue of people behind us that want to add to the problem.  As I said, an aggravating factor not the root cause.  It is used as an excuse to try to deflect away from our responsibility to clean our mess up.  Or an excuse that cleaning the mess up is pointless as the [insert group of choice] are trying to destroy the ecosystem all on their own.

A shift to renewable and to carbon neutral energy sources is needed and then the issue of world population becomes just one of overcrowding and land use.  Still a big problem.  Fortunately it is easily tackled, just like climate change.  Large family size is mostly driven by poverty and misogyny.  By educating and empowering women you can reduce reproductive rates quite effectively.  Once again the political right are doing their best to prevent that.  In Brazil the lunatic there is asking people to reproduce as if there is no tomorrow.  Mr Trump's recent appointee Barrett doesn't think women should be allowed control of their own bodies and reproductive rights.

I lived in Italy for a while.  It is a religious country and deeply catholic.  The Pope was at the time against contraception.  The average family size for Italian women was one child.  Education and access to a decent life was the solution.  Italian north/south divide is reflected in per capita income and in family size.  As you go more south it gets poorer and families get bigger.

I am an optimist, I see the solution to the problems.  The thing stopping us doing what is needed is the political hard right, people like Trump.  Ironically people vote for idiots like that because they are scared that their income and lifestyle is under threat and yet it is the hard right that threatens them and the move to neoliberal economics.  Maybe, just maybe, Mr Biden is the start of a turning point and a move away from this divisive and destructive political movement that has brought us to this place.  If so the US will again lead the world in the  right direction.  That will be a good thing.

I still think there are just too many of us.

Interesting observation on Italy. I suspect that a significant driver of many nation's population growth is fundamentalist religion - as distinct from the more typical moderates (if there is such a thing). Fundamentalist religion seems to be on the rise around the globe in it's various flavours and all of them I'm aware of take a pretty dim view of any efforts to limit birth rates - more so than even papal christianity, although that's bad enough. Certainly I've seen plenty of evidence that the more fundamentalists have big families around here. Still, I also suspect that much of the rise of fundamentalist religion is due to disenfranchisement, poverty and lack of decent education. So education is certainly high on the agenda for corrective action. Shame that USA, Australia and I presume various other countries overtaken by the neo-liberalists are cutting funding to education and even allowing the mad fundamentalists a voice in it in some cases.

I'm obviously more of a pessimist than you even though I do consider myself moderately optimistic - I find it extremely hard to see Biden as anything much but a continuation of the neo-liberal status-quo that fertilised the rise of Trump. He's vastly preferable to Trump, but that's a pretty low bar. His rumoured candidates for the cabinet all seem to suggest business as usual, and that's a recipe for vacillation, support to the loudest lobbyists, aggressive foreign policy, neoliberal economics and a disastrous lack of connection to the people who voted Trump in. The next "Trump" (and there will be one!) is highly likely to be more intelligent, better spoken and even more dangerous in their own way, if nothing else they will have learnt valuable lessons from Trump's foray.

So I'm not sure the thing stopping us is people like Trump - it's as much the people who just don't get why people like Trump appeal to so many, and fail to make a real effort to understand and find a new way forward.

Biden needs to take a look at Jacinda Adern and learn how to connect with a far wider cross section of his country if he's going to have a chance to make a real difference. Fingers crossed that someone of his age has grown up enough to recognise that party politics and ideology are no substitute for just doing the right thing. As pmk would probably agree, somewhat unlikely in a career party politician.

Oh well, it's all good clean family fun watching the reality show, and slowly, slowly things are moving toward a better outcome, perhaps.

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A great deal of valuable stuff in this whole thread. Many contributions from cleverer folks than me and probably better informed. 

When I  see what's going on in the world I usually draw the same conclusion as to blame. Human nature, the Darwinian side, without the empathic development. How can I look into the face of a starving child, look away and then book a holiday costing £thousands. I am no better than anyone else , just as selfish. Much of the world population starving and much of it overweight. 

If you are a Friend of the Earth , surely human extinction is your goal! The earth will be fine without us, ask any cockroach. Lol.

I really don't pretend to have a solution. Many good first steps are in these texts but I suspect a basic, fundamental  acceptance of the root cause will have to be reached and accepted. I have a nasty feeling that the "Too Late " cynario will be winner, which is only a purely personal reflection of my faith in humanity. The only species aware of its mortality and for some reason it acts as it does.

A mystery perhaps. 

I am aware that my contribution is as pointless as it is crass.

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, bikerpet said:

I still think there are just too many of us.

I think so too but short of a Covid mutation to 90% mortality rate the numbers are going to stay what they are for a generation unless climate change starts a war.

 

40 minutes ago, Moomoo said:

...I am aware that my contribution is as pointless as it is crass.

But pretty much bang on the head.  Individually all of us are irrelevant, we will beat the problem if we work together but not for as long as major world leaders lie and pretend it is not an issue.

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5 minutes ago, ChrisCH said:

I think so too but short of a Covid mutation to 90% mortality rate the numbers are going to stay what they are for a generation unless climate change starts a war.

 

But pretty much bang on the head.  Individually all of us are irrelevant, we will beat the problem if we work together but not for as long as major world leaders lie and pretend it is not an issue.

Ironically, there is  what seems to be a strong movement by people with power, not always politicians, to actually reduce the worlds population, and they are the ones writing the guidelines of who is allowed to survive.  Not sure where that conspiracy theory originated, but there is quite a following that believe it is happening.

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1 hour ago, pmk said:

Ironically, there is  what seems to be a strong movement by people with power, not always politicians, to actually reduce the worlds population, and they are the ones writing the guidelines of who is allowed to survive.  Not sure where that conspiracy theory originated, but there is quite a following that believe it is happening.

People believe all sorts of rubbish, mostly because it makes sense of something that is otherwise confusing.  All reputable data sources that I am aware of project increasing population for a few more years, perhaps up to a decade, followed by a slow decline.  There really are not that many humans when you get things into perspective but most of the world's cities are overcrowded and so if you live in that environment it looks like all the world is overcrowded.  Where I live on the south coast of England is overcrowded and so for that selfish reason I would welcome a reduction in numbers.  Fortunately the trials ground is not too far for me so the traffic is not as unbearable as it might be.

To make any major difference to CO2 output the need to reduce by huge amounts the people in wealthy countries like the US is unrealistic.  Also in countries where wealth is unevenly distributed like USA or UK it is the top 20-30 percent that are putting out the most CO2 so again you really have to remove them rather than the bottom 20%.  The more you look at the data the more obvious it becomes that overall numbers are not that important.  Some rich people heli-skiing are putting out more CO2 in a weekend than an African village in a generation.  Make the helicopter run on carbon neutral fuel and the immediate CO2 problem goes away.   Killing all the rich people would just move up the next layer until African villagers all drive SUVs.

I guess if you are super super rich like Mr Musk you figure you can fly off to live on Mars.  But then he is just nuts.

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Lineaway, have you seen this.  Again, never sure who to believe any more.

 

“REPORT: DOMINION DELETED 2.7 MILLION TRUMP VOTES NATIONWIDE. DATA ANALYSIS FINDS 221,000 PENNSYLVANIA VOTES SWITCHED FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP TO BIDEN. 941,000 TRUMP VOTES DELETED. STATES USING DOMINION VOTING SYSTEMS SWITCHED 435,000 VOTES FROM TRUMP TO BIDEN.”

 

So far, we have 234 pages of sworn affidavits alleging Election irregularities from just ONE county in Michigan. Here are the allegations:

  • EYEWITNESS saw a batch of ballots where 60% of them had the SAME signature
  • EYEWITNESS saw a batch of ballots scanned 5 times
  • EYEWITNESS saw 35 ballots counted that were NOT connected to a voter record
  • EYEWITNESS saw poll workers marking ballots with NO mark for candidates
  • VOTER said deceased son was recorded as voting TWICE
  • EYEWITNESS said provisional ballots were placed in the tabulation box
  • FAILED software that caused an error in Antrim County used in Wayne County
  • Republican challengers not readmitted but Democrats admitted
  • Republican challengers physically pushed from counting tables by officials
  • Democrats gave out packet: “Tactics to Distract Republican Challengers”
  • Republican challenges to suspect ballots ignored

 

Despite the Left’s best efforts to cause CHAOS and DELAY this Election, President Trump is gaining momentum in key battleground states.

Winning North Carolina is a HISTORIC achievement, but we can’t stop now.

 

 

 

Edited by pmk
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9 hours ago, lineaway said:

_Dominion Conspiracy Theory Video_

You really need to be more selective on the misinformation you choose to spread lineaway, or were you simply pointing out the misinformation being spread by the various vested interests?

From dominionvoting.com:

Dominion has no company ownership relationships with any member of the Pelosi family, the Feinstein family, or the Clinton Global Initiative.  Dominion works with all political parties; our customer base and our government outreach practices reflect this nonpartisan approach.

This appears to be confirmed by a variety of independent media sources.

9 hours ago, pmk said:

Ironically, there is  what seems to be a strong movement by people with power, not always politicians, to actually reduce the worlds population, and they are the ones writing the guidelines of who is allowed to survive.  Not sure where that conspiracy theory originated, but there is quite a following that believe it is happening.

There are also people who believe in aliens controlling the government, and people who believe in an omnipotent and beneficent god.

Belief does not mean something is true.

8 hours ago, ChrisCH said:

People believe all sorts of rubbish, mostly because it makes sense of something that is otherwise confusing.  I'd add that often it's because they can't or wont understand the alternative explanations. All reputable data sources that I am aware of project increasing population for a few more years, perhaps up to a decade, followed by a slow decline.  There really are not that many humans when you get things into perspective but most of the world's cities are overcrowded and so if you live in that environment it looks like all the world is overcrowded.  Where I live on the south coast of England is overcrowded and so for that selfish reason I would welcome a reduction in numbers.  Fortunately the trials ground is not too far for me so the traffic is not as unbearable as it might be.

Well that's encouraging that we might be headed for a decline shortly.

To make any major difference to CO2 output the need to reduce by huge amounts the people in wealthy countries like the US is unrealistic.  Also in countries where wealth is unevenly distributed like USA or UK it is the top 20-30 percent that are putting out the most CO2 so again you really have to remove them rather than the bottom 20%.  The more you look at the data the more obvious it becomes that overall numbers are not that important.  Some rich people heli-skiing are putting out more CO2 in a weekend than an African village in a generation.  Make the helicopter run on carbon neutral fuel and the immediate CO2 problem goes away.   Killing all the rich people would just move up the next layer until African villagers all drive SUVs.

I think what you're saying here is that we'd need to kill off the wealthy people to make a difference, and then the problem would just move along to the new wealthy people? So reduction of "wealthy emissions" is the solution.

That somewhat disregards the fact that everyone is trying to move up the consumption ladder, and have been for time immemorial so it's unreasonable to think that's going to change any time soon. So the more people there are, the more pressure there is on resources. Reducing wealthy country's consumption to that of the African village would be a solution, but obviously not realistic. Reducing the GHG output from our consumption is a partial solution, but unless we can manage to actually make consumption GHG negative I'm not quite sure how it looks as the billions of poor/less wealthy move up the consumption ladder.

To be very clear, I'm definitely not suggesting it's all pointless, let's throw our hands up in despair! We must reduce our emissions and we can do that best by rapidly greenifying our transport and stationary energy sectors. No question there! I just can't help but think that we also need to be planning/hoping for a smaller human population overall. I guess that reflects my underlying suspicion that we're like a cancer on the planet.

I guess if you are super super rich like Mr Musk you figure you can fly off to live on Mars.  But then he is just nuts.

He's certainly a mixed bag! A major driver of the e-transport evolution - that's not madness in my book. Hurling cars into space for a stunt, and talking about populating Mars - that is.

 

43 minutes ago, pmk said:

Lineaway, have you seen this.  Again, never sure who to believe any more.

 

“REPORT: DOMINION DELETED 2.7 MILLION TRUMP VOTES NATIONWIDE. DATA ANALYSIS FINDS 221,000 PENNSYLVANIA VOTES SWITCHED FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP TO BIDEN. 941,000 TRUMP VOTES DELETED. STATES USING DOMINION VOTING SYSTEMS SWITCHED 435,000 VOTES FROM TRUMP TO BIDEN.”

 

So far, we have 234 pages of sworn affidavits alleging Election irregularities from just ONE county in Michigan. Here are the allegations:

etc

If you have confidence in your country's underlying structures of democracy and legal process then you'll take all of the posturing and carry-on with a pinch of salt and wait for the final outcome.

If you don't have confidence in those processes then you've got a far bigger problem on your hands than whether either Biden or Trump win!

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 Oh, most of us have little confidence in our voting process or what is left of our democracy. With over 20 million illegal aliens, living, working and voting in our country it is very hard to think that anything is transparent.

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14 minutes ago, lineaway said:

 Oh, most of us have little confidence in our voting process or what is left of our democracy. With over 20 million illegal aliens, living, working and voting in our country it is very hard to think that anything is transparent.

Neither Biden nor Trump are going to help correct that for you. Sad times.

I found this an interesting perspective on the coming years - rings pretty true to me.

Is a Republican Senate Biden’s Dream Come True?

The past few federal elections here my electorate (a conservative rural one) has voted in independent candidates - they have been vastly more effective and positive than the party hacks that mostly preceded them. 

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On 11/8/2020 at 2:58 PM, lineaway said:

 I am not sucked into anything. The media declared Biden the winner. Our country is not run by the associated press. The counting is not finished. All four of the last states is less than a 1% margin. The Democrates are just sqeaking by with Biden/Harris. Pretty poor showing against a man that most of the World dislikes. What are they going to do if the GOP gets a guy that actually has a personality.

 What you people don't get, its not that we have a love affair with the likes of Trump. It's that we hate lifetime poliiticians like Biden. The Democrates speak like they care abiut the USA, but are just a bunch of crooks.

Every other time the media declares the winner, it happens here and I guess everywhere, but youve again been sucked into repeating trumps propaganda, you lost get over it.

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On 11/11/2020 at 12:20 PM, lineaway said:

Well if it was not for paper ballots, we would not have a chance to verify the real vote. As it is we might never know. The supreme court is already looking into the vote in Pennsylvania.

 Biden can now be persecuted for making deals with foreign countries. A citizen is not allowed this privilege. As it undermines the current President. Biden actually did this to the Trump administration for a phone call in December of 2016. Funny how he never thought it would apply to himself.

 Bikerpet good luck on the new bike, I bought one myself last year. It still sits waiting for a rider!

The supreme court is not looking at pensylvania. You lost get over it.

Biden persecuted or prosecuted?

https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-donald-trump-elections-voting-fraud-and-irregularities-us-supreme-court-14eb73bc80dfd2aa637d097a3f41fca5

Edited by nigel dabster

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9 hours ago, bikerpet said:

To be very clear, I'm definitely not suggesting it's all pointless, let's throw our hands up in despair! We must reduce our emissions and we can do that best by rapidly greenifying our transport and stationary energy sectors. No question there! I just can't help but think that we also need to be planning/hoping for a smaller human population overall. I guess that reflects my underlying suspicion that we're like a cancer on the planet.

I agree.  There is a lot to do and I agree that we must begin to remove CO2 from the atmosphere if the planet is to continue as it is now.  This is the problem with buying millions of electric vehicles - the CO2 fuel saving is in the future the manufacturing CO2 emissions in the present.  Present day emissions will melt the permafrost releasing methane and the future CO2 savings will be ineffectual.  Or in the vernacular; we are screwed.

Likewise population reduction is only good for the future and the CO2 driven issues will kill off billions anyway so it is self-fulfilling.  Starvation and war are going to reduce the global population by at least 20-30 percent and the rise in sea level will destroy the much of the real estate that underpins widespread wealth in the developed countries.  The future will be rather unpleasant for the vast majority of surviving humans that are not part of the 1%.  Add in some pandemics and it doesn't look good.  Maybe the end-of-the-world wack jobs have got it right eventually by accident ?

If you are going to fight something and win you really need to understand it.  The enemy is the political right and people like Trump who spread disinformation and lies that there is no crisis and the correct course of action is to do nothing.  Trump has children and so either doesn't care about them or thinks his and their wealth will ensure the future is OK for them and the halfwits that vote for him are expendable.  (As he said, he could shoot them and they would still vote for him).  I do not share his contempt for his supporters.  It is not that they are idiots it is simply they are in denial.  This is a powerful human technique to deal with fear.  If we believe really hard it will become true.

A global political change is therefore the only solution.  A universal acceptance that climate change is the greatest threat to the species and an agreed approach to dealing with it.  The alternative is the "Mad Max" outcome.  With Trump gone it will be harder for the other leaders to carry on the pretence.  With the immense power of the USA turning against them the likes of Brazil will have to fall into line.  Without wishing to descend into hyperbole this election is either the turning point (which I hope it is) or the final, irreversible failure.  Our species cannot afford four more years of the lies and deliberate attacks on environmental protection that have been the hallmark of Mr Trump's presidency.  I hope we have seen the last of him and everyone like him.

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On 11/12/2020 at 5:07 PM, pmk said:

 

So far, we have 234 pages of sworn affidavits alleging Election irregularities from just ONE county in Michigan. Here are the allegations:

  • EYEWITNESS saw a batch of ballots where 60% of them had the SAME signature
  • EYEWITNESS saw a batch of ballots scanned 5 times
  • EYEWITNESS saw 35 ballots counted that were NOT connected to a voter record
  • EYEWITNESS saw poll workers marking ballots with NO mark for candidates
  • VOTER said deceased son was recorded as voting TWICE
  • EYEWITNESS said provisional ballots were placed in the tabulation box
  • FAILED software that caused an error in Antrim County used in Wayne County
  • Republican challengers not readmitted but Democrats admitted
  • Republican challengers physically pushed from counting tables by officials
  • Democrats gave out packet: “Tactics to Distract Republican Challengers”
  • Republican challenges to suspect ballots ignored

 

 

 

 

 

Easy there Paul.... that county is Wayne county where I and my vote in ballet reside. Those were not sworn affidavits they were declarations. If they were sworn and notarized those people would be guilty of perjury/ Those were testimonials of people that were not and are not involved with the voting ballot process. The eye witnesses were not even in the room because they were not part of the legal voting system. There was no software failure proven in Wayne country. The voter who logged onto the public website on two different devices thinks that it counts twice (counting properly seems to be a thing). Republican challengers that are making these claims were not part of the republican nominated trustees.... These were a bunch of self proclaimed fanatics who do not agree with the results and their signatures and identification supports that. I ride trials bicycle on the river walk right behind the ex cobo center which is now owned by TFC. I get it that they are not happy but no one has provided proof that the democratic process is not strong here. Alleging does not indicate guilt. Proof of people not following the rules has not been proven. My vote counted and I am happy about that. 

--Biff

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On 11/13/2020 at 1:57 AM, lineaway said:

 Oh, most of us have little confidence in our voting process or what is left of our democracy. With over 20 million illegal aliens, living, working and voting in our country it is very hard to think that anything is transparent.

Yet when trump won without the popular vote it wasnt a problem?

Wake up and smell the coffee!

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