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One For The Americans

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1 hour ago, ChrisCH said:

I kind of agree but there is still (well I think) a body of people that are not signed up to one or another party (or team if you like).  Certainly here in the UK we have an arcane system in which a small number of so-called "floating voters" decide the government.  Quite how a person can "float" between two rather polarised views of how to run the country I personally don't know.  It certainly requires that the individual concerned understands nothing whatsoever about politics or governance (and probably economics as well).

It is the fruit loop or hyper enthusiast element that make the noise.  They are the ones posting on facebook and other social media (including forums like this one).  A link to a raving idiot on YouTube is "evidence" and proves that the ridiculous conspiracy theory of choice is true.  You end up with idiots charging into a pizza restaurant to find a non existent cellar.  The bit I cannot fathom is how people can be so gullible.  Being in a crowd and getting carried away is human but to experience the same lack of self discipline via an internet site seems a bit crazy to me.

 

Your a little scathing of the UK voter, most are totally disenfranchised. It matters not a jot who I vote for  being a Scot, we have absolutely no  chance of having our voice heard in Westminster. Of the 650 seats 59 are scottish, it was recently reduced to this number as we were "over represented "

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5 hours ago, b40rt said:

Your a little scathing of the UK voter, most are totally disenfranchised. It matters not a jot who I vote for  being a Scot, we have absolutely no  chance of having our voice heard in Westminster. Of the 650 seats 59 are scottish, it was recently reduced to this number as we were "over represented "

Given who they voted for a bit scathing seems appropriate.  I agree that Scotland gets a poor showing and as best I can see is headed to leave the UK at some point.  (Rightly IMHO)

Irrespective of party allegiance and preference my opinion of your First Minister is much greater than the UK PM.  I will be sorry if you all vote to go as it is a lovely country, I am not keen on the idea of having to get a visa to visit it.  But that's just me being selfish.  I think - right now - you are tied to a corpse.  If I had to guess within a decade I would expect to see the new Northern Irish border arrangement include Scotland at the very least.

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6 minutes ago, ChrisCH said:

Given who they voted for a bit scathing seems appropriate.  I agree that Scotland gets a poor showing and as best I can see is headed to leave the UK at some point.  (Rightly IMHO)

Irrespective of party allegiance and preference my opinion of your First Minister is much greater than the UK PM.  I will be sorry if you all vote to go as it is a lovely country, I am not keen on the idea of having to get a visa to visit it.  But that's just me being selfish.  I think - right now - you are tied to a corpse.  If I had to guess within a decade I would expect to see the new Northern Irish border arrangement include Scotland at the very least.

I'd move the border way further south, maybe ring fencing Westminster ?

Edited by b40rt
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8.2% of the population.

9.1% of MPs.

Plus devolved powers. 

Scotland seems to have fair representation to me.

Of course fair representation doesn't equal needs being met but that's a different matter. As for vote not counting that applies to every UK safe seat.

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1 hour ago, totty79 said:

8.2% of the population.

9.1% of MPs.

Plus devolved powers. 

Scotland seems to have fair representation to me.

Of course fair representation doesn't equal needs being met but that's a different matter. As for vote not counting that applies to every UK safe seat.

Rapidly shrinking devolved powers. How much change can be effected with 9.1% ?

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1 hour ago, b40rt said:

Rapidly shrinking devolved powers. How much change can be effected with 9.1% ?

9.1 % with a convincing argument in a Non-whipped system, possibly.

With a Whipped system, not so much.

l feel I'm missing something here.

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2 hours ago, b40rt said:

Rapidly shrinking devolved powers. How much change can be effected with 9.1% ?

Very little, but how much control should 8.2% of the population have?

I agree that the whipped system is a big part of the problem, safe seats where a party will win without doing anything for their area enable this. The SNP know they can ignore most peoples needs, just like Labour have done in the run down North East of England.

 

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On 1/4/2021 at 10:22 PM, totty79 said:

Very little, but how much control should 8.2% of the population have?

I agree that the whipped system is a big part of the problem, safe seats where a party will win without doing anything for their area enable this. The SNP know they can ignore most peoples needs, just like Labour have done in the run down North East of England.

 

Sounds like a great system, probably best to leave it there.

Flip side is, should 8.2% have no say ?

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16 hours ago, ChrisCH said:

I kind of agree but there is still (well I think) a body of people that are not signed up to one or another party (or team if you like).  Certainly here in the UK we have an arcane system in which a small number of so-called "floating voters" decide the government.  Quite how a person can "float" between two rather polarised views of how to run the country I personally don't know.  It certainly requires that the individual concerned understands nothing whatsoever about politics or governance (and probably economics as well).

It is the fruit loop or hyper enthusiast element that make the noise.  They are the ones posting on facebook and other social media (including forums like this one).  A link to a raving idiot on YouTube is "evidence" and proves that the ridiculous conspiracy theory of choice is true.  You end up with idiots charging into a pizza restaurant to find a non existent cellar.  The bit I cannot fathom is how people can be so gullible.  Being in a crowd and getting carried away is human but to experience the same lack of self discipline via an internet site seems a bit crazy to me.

 

Floating voters are for the most part hip-pocket voters. They vote for whoever they perceive is going to put the most in their wallet, right now. The Pollys are fully aware of their motivation and resort to all sorts of pork-barreling to gain their vote. 

In Australia we increasingly have a number of independent politicians who are holding the balance of power. Of course the two parties try to convince the population that this will derail their ability to govern and result in "the economy" going to rack and ruin. I think it's unquestionably a good thing, even though I disagree strongly with some of those independent's views. Now the two major parties have to actually consider viewpoints other than their own and (miracle of miracles) actually make some attempt to govern cooperatively and with some compromise to their particular dogma.

I disagree that it's the "fruit loop or hyper enthusiast element that make the noise", yes they do make noise, but the larger numbers of moderately invested supporters who all talk with their friends, co-workers, family etc make a far more significant contribution. The problem is that it's in the politician's, big business, big media etc.'s interest to polarise people's views, to keep them from being the swinging voters. This has gradually created the chasm between what are really very similar world views, and the tendency to call anyone who has a different view a "fruit loop". Once the broader population feels able to call anyone with a conflicting view "a fruit loop" it's almost impossible to have a sensible conversation and arrive at a consensus agreement. It makes me so angry that our nominal leaders are so short sighted and self interested that they continue to promote this bi-polar view despite the obvious damage it is doing to their countries and the world.

Neither the UK, nor the USA, nor Australia have anything like parties with truly "polarised views of how to run the country" - they are all well entrenched in a fairly neo-liberal world view, they just fiddle around the edges with the particular implementation. Generally also showing very little ability to plan for anything much further ahead than the next election cycle. Heck, the USA is so scared of anything outside the accepted norm that in some states they wont even allow a Communist party to run for election - so much for free speech! If they are actually concerned that the Communists might win significant power then perhaps they should ask why that might happen! I think it's pretty laughable to think that the American population might vote in more than insignifcant number of communist party representatives, but strange things can happen, as we've seen. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in any way a Communist, just demonstrating how narrow the the range of views in much modern politics is.

It is a complete mystery to me how people can be so completely gullible too, although I have to suspect that I'm being gullible in my beliefs simply because I see so many others who don't think themselves gullible, but who from my perspective are. I put it down in large part to education systems that increasingly focus on specific, measurable results rather than learning sound processes applicable to "life in general". Rather like trying to teach someone to be a good trials rider by teaching them how to get up this particular rock, instead of teaching them how to learn the basic building block skills, and then how to analyze a problem and decide on the best approach to solve it.

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7 hours ago, bikerpet said:

...It is a complete mystery to me how people can be so completely gullible too, although I have to suspect that I'm being gullible in my beliefs simply because I see so many others who don't think themselves gullible, but who from my perspective are. I put it down in large part to education systems that increasingly focus on specific, measurable results rather than learning sound processes applicable to "life in general". Rather like trying to teach someone to be a good trials rider by teaching them how to get up this particular rock, instead of teaching them how to learn the basic building block skills, and then how to analyze a problem and decide on the best approach to solve it.

Possibly part of it.  This aspect is the bit that fascinates me, much more so than the politics.  (I think you are right about that).  On TV here last night was a repeat program about fake news.  It is an old program and pre-dates the lunacy that is the US right now.  It (fake news) is very old and the newspapers have been doing it since the 19th century.  The reality is that a large percentage of the population will prefer to believe a lie (even knowing it to be one) if it fits in with their prejudice and/or makes them feel good.  (Religion for example).

It is that belief that makes people into the fruit loop element IMHO.  Stubborn belief in the face of overwhelming factual evidence.  This is what is happening in the US in regard to the last election.  Outside the US where we really don't have any great skin in the game we look at the facts as best they appear.  There is no real evidence whatsoever to suggest cheating.  If you were one of the people Trump fooled you want to stay fooled so it must be the other side can only win by cheating, otherwise you are wrong.

It is terrifying if you think about it.  It is how Hitler came to power and why millions died.  It is why the millions Stalin had killed are overlooked or downplayed.  It is why so many Americans can ignore their county's acts of terror, or the Brits can falsely romanticise the barbaric cruelty of the empire.  More up to date it is why we can and do ignore climate change.  I hope that does not turn out like the other examples.  A happy and better new year to the world.

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 So it get`s more interesting. I could comment, but any opinion is wrong by 50% of the people . It was a lot easier when I would vote for the best loser with the most morals.

 So we probably will not know who will be standing on the podium on the 21st until Monday the 18th. That`s all I can say at the moment. Which will be your todays news before midnight tonight. Check.

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7 hours ago, lineaway said:

 So it get`s more interesting. I could comment, but any opinion is wrong by 50% of the people . It was a lot easier when I would vote for the best loser with the most morals.

 So we probably will not know who will be standing on the podium on the 21st until Monday the 18th. That`s all I can say at the moment. Which will be your todays news before midnight tonight. Check.

Let me get this 100% straight, you still think trump could be president after January 21st?

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