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One For The Americans

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45 minutes ago, lineaway said:

Bikerpet,

For the most part I was just feeding into your hate for Trump.  The issue with the courts was NOT lack of evidence. No court wanted to deal with the consequences. In other words they were all protecting their jobs, pensions, and retirement. NONE looked at anything.   The attack on our constitution is not from Trump. It started a long, long time ago with the Democrats. The question still remains to this day why the Democratic party had Kennedy killed. As for the recent events at our Capitol, that is still under investigation. The officer who lost his life is a shame, but they still have not released his cause of death. Heart attack or a medical condition more likely. As with the other officer that committed suicide. Most of the people at the rally were actually good meaning citizens. Things just got out of hand by a few instigators or worse. You just need to read between the lines, instead of going through life with the blinders on.

 And by the way most police forces in this state has basically told the Government not to count on them to enforce any laws without them being

constitutional.  Basically most police unions across America have told the Governors they are full of **** with these made up laws about the lockdowns.

And nobody is coming in my home. Remember I live with people that believe in America. We still eat what we shoot. Well maybe not everything.

 

 

@lineaway 

1 hour ago, lineaway said:

too far removed to understand anything that is really going on here

What I don't understand is how you can sustain these beliefs in the face of the evidence to the contrary, probably just as you can't understand how I can't see what you're saying.

The courts did their jobs from what I read, but there are a lot of people who don't like the answer they got so they wont believe it. I've very rarely pointed the finger at the Republicans or the Democrats, although there are members of both who are complicit in some woeful activities - it's Trump who has escalated things so badly, the rest are just sad opportunists for the most part. I understood the officer at the Capitol was killed by being hit with a fire extinguisher. I've little doubt most of the people at the rally were well meaning citizens, but there were an awful lot who quite obviously weren't, and Trump and his cronies have to take responsibility at least in part for encouraging their actions.

Here in Australia we have literally little more than a handful of people with Covid. We have largely accepted our lockdowns and abided by them despite not relishing them in any way, and as a result we can currently go about our lives with relatively few restrictions and with little fear of Covid. By contrast, in the USA where you largely refuse to take the most basic precautions on the basis that they are unconstitutional or unfair restrictions on your freedom you are a world leader in Covid death and illness rates, and things are continuing to get worse. Your choice, but it's not one I can understand - "I'd rather die or have my parents die than curtail my activities for a short time, or wear a mask". I call that weird. But then I expect you don't believe the official figures so fair enough, carry on.

I have very little fear of people coming into my home, and I don't have, or feel any need for a gun to keep it that way. Australia ranks 141 in Homicide deaths per 100,000 people (0.8/100K) with pretty strong gun restriction laws. The USA sits at 55 (5.3/100K) amid such salubrious places as Ecuador, Suriname & Zambia. Perhaps a little more reliance on rule of law rather than rule of might could be beneficial? Increasing the numbers of killing devices available seems an unusual way to make a place safer, and the numbers seem to bear that out. Or perhaps you Americans just enjoy the thrill of the additional risk?

I know there is nothing I can say that will move you from your position, just as it is apparent there is nothing you can say that will move me significantly from mine.

I wish you well over there. And good luck, as things are going I believe you'll need it.

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I think people of all countries have similar issues to a greater or lesser extent.  People have a need to form an allegiance to a side in politics but also in lots of other areas of their lives, wherever there is discussion.

Normally on TC our tribes or allegiances are the brand of bike we ride, or boots we wear or stop / no stop. We see the same behaviours as we see in current politics , when peoples opinions are threatened this motivates a need to respond,  its often an emotional response not a calm , thought out, considered response. 

People move the conversation when challenged to an area where they think they have the upper hand. Best boots ? First Post goes " Oh definitely Gaerne are the most comfortable" next post ....." yes but they don't protect your feet, no toe cap, ankle support not the best". This is actually a reasonable conversation in that all of the comments are at least valid to me in terms of my personal experience. 

The stop / no stop conversation is more polarised and both camps ignore some truths. No stop is a farce even at local trials as it is so inconsistently observed and also because sections are often not suited to those rules. But sitting in queues while people who can't hop try to is very frustrating, trials where you have to hop all the time are frustrating too. 

We get a more polarised view with this issue as there are only two options. We also see that people ignore the issues with the stance they have taken and just look at the positives. This has facilitated no progress on this issue,  to make progress we need to deal in reality,  to move forward we need both sides to recognise the weaknesses in their arguments and address them.

In politics now we see a similar game but with much higher stakes. Two political camps or tribes if you wish.

Democrat v Republican 

Leave v Remain

Labour v Conservative 

In the brexit campaign both sides were guilty of preaching absolute crap but nobody cared, people picked a side and stuck with it through thick and thin. Everyone knew the nhs would not be £350m better off, a few less knew that as a large part of the workforce were foreign if you stopped immigration there'd be nothing to spend that money on anyway. Equally although we are worse off in my view the remain campaign overplayed the impact , they didn't deal enough reality.

America is in a worse place, they seem so far removed from reality its absolutely incredible. Im watching people get interviewed and I don't know how they survive day to day. Do these people think spiderman is a documentary? They have nailed their colours to Republican or Trump or Democrat and they will grasp any story , no matter how far fetched to attack the opposition rather than consider the weakness of their own position. 

At the moment Trump / Republicans are the Toni Bou equivalent in this field 

Stolen election, Q anon, birther movement , Biden is controlled by China,  it just goes on and on. Im sure there will have been times when democrats have presented some fanciful tales too but has it ever been this extreme ?People spouting this stuff don't deserve our attention. They need to be left alone to reflect on their conduct in the fullness of time, nobody will enjoy the experience.

We will not make progress while this behaviour continues. We need to expect better , if you need to make stuff up to win then you need to think again. 

 

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3 hours ago, baldilocks said:

...We will not make progress while this behaviour continues. We need to expect better , if you need to make stuff up to win then you need to think again. 

 

I agree with your post - but this behaviour is orchestrated, it is driven by people that are not often discussed.  People like Bannon and Murdoch (Cummins in the UK - although discussed a bit more after his misbehaviour).

In 1930s Germany the same people in the background thought they could control and manipulate the population and the figurehead but this belief was mistaken.  Eventually the loss of control was complete and the country destroyed itself and much of the world in the process.  Notice how quickly the Trump phenomena has been dropped by the likes of Fox?  Ever wonder why such a lazy and stupid person was allowed in in the first place?  Look at the UK and Alexander Johnson and half the cabinet now attacking him for being nearly sensible about lockdown.

The lessons have been learned and the point to bail out is better understood.  But I am very sure that the need to "make stuff up" in order to win is just as strong as it ever was.  Like many other posters I am unable to comprehend why anyone is dumb enough to believe it.  That failure is a massive problem on both sides.

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Also the emotional attachment some people clearly have with politicians is very unhealthy.

The way they scream their adoration to, or defend policies from their favourite politician, inevitable leads to foolish, or in some cases, outright dangerous behavior.

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2 hours ago, guys said:

Also the emotional attachment some people clearly have with politicians is very unhealthy.

The way they scream their adoration to, or defend policies from their favourite politician, inevitable leads to foolish, or in some cases, outright dangerous behavior.

Adoration of individuals is almost always a one-way street.  Be it sportsmen, pop stars or whoever. The individual all to often starts to believe the hype and also start to act like some superman without anyone to remind them that they are not. For too long.

As for the followers of such people, my time in retail has taught me never to underestimate  the gullibility of Joe public. My time as a psychotherapist has shown me that people can be very convinced that any reason for them to change their opinions or behaviour can only mean the person asking them to consider any change are viewed as nuts.

Make your own list.

 

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Bikerpet,

(Here in Australia we have literally little more than a handful of people with Covid. We have largely accepted our lockdowns and abided by them despite not relishing them in any way, and as a result we can currently go about our lives with relatively few restrictions and with little fear of Covid. By contrast, in the USA where you largely refuse to take the most basic precautions on the basis that they are unconstitutional or unfair restrictions on your freedom you are a world leader in Covid death and illness rates, and things are continuing to get worse. Your choice, but it's not one I can understand - "I'd rather die or have my parents die than curtail my activities for a short time, or wear a mask". I call that weird. But then I expect you don't believe the official figures so fair enough, carry on. )

 The funny part of Covid in my state is the color charts for covid vs the charts for party affiliation are just opposites. The covid problem areas are all Democratic high population centers, and all the rural areas are republican and have vary little cases in comparison. It`s like this through out most of America. So in the areas of all the MAGA crazy people, we have the lowest covid rates. Go figure,

 And as far as Australia goes with covid, I wish you all well in the coming months. Especially when your second wave hits in the end of April. Having the Tennis tournament this week appears to be a very big mistake, with all the new strains being found. Hope you get some trials events in before you get shut down again. I am riding as much as I can as I only rode one event in 2020. So far I have 3 events this year!   

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Demographics play a significant part in the spread of the virus, so it's not so unusual to see low numbers in large rural areas.
Our practice grounds have been open for most part of time, but only for a limited amount of people. But since we're a fairly small club, that hasn't been a problem so far.

 

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1 hour ago, lineaway said:

... The funny part of Covid in my state is the color charts for covid vs the charts for party affiliation are just opposites. The covid problem areas are all Democratic high population centers, and all the rural areas are republican and have vary little cases in comparison. It`s like this through out most of America. So in the areas of all the MAGA crazy people, we have the lowest covid rates. Go figure,

...

Which is funny, because here the left leaning rural areas have a low rate of covid, and the right wing areas of highly populated cities have a high rate.  Not as high as America, but still.

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For anyone that can see it there was a very interesting (and frightening) program last night about the evangelical right and Mr Trump.  Worth a watch if you are locked down and bored.

If you are outside the UK you will need a VPN.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000rgnz/til-kingdom-come-trump-faith-and-money

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9 minutes ago, ChrisCH said:

For anyone that can see it there was a very interesting (and frightening) program last night about the evangelical right and Mr Trump.  Worth a watch if you are locked down and bored.

If you are outside the UK you will need a VPN.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000rgnz/til-kingdom-come-trump-faith-and-money

More stuff that defies belief. The human is supposed to be the most intelligent creature on earth. I would submit that program as evidence that it does not include all of them.

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Trump was bad, and an obvious hypocritical christian, but Pence is a real fundamentalist and as such also capable of making some really bad decisions for non believers or people with other religious beliefs.

I've seen a documentary once about a Christian, who searched for Jews, so he could persuade and help them, to move to Israel. He really believed in the second coming of Christ. How dumb can you be.

Edited by guys

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1 hour ago, guys said:

...I've seen a documentary once about a Christian, who searched for Jews, so he could persuade and help them, to move to Israel. He really believed in the second coming of Christ. How dumb can you be.

As you are in Belgium and cannot see the BBC program I can tell you it pretty much follows the same lines.  It exposes Netanyahu for his lies and the slow and deliberate genocide against the Palestinians.

The huge difference between the US and the UK is not that we (English) add a pointless U in color but that the US is a highly religious country with a massive fundamentalist movement similar to the ISIS people in Syria.  As it happens both ISIS and the Christian right believe the same prophesy of the second coming and the destruction of the planet with the annihilation of unbelievers.  This is why both groups pay no heed whatsoever to climate change and the destruction of the ecosystem - they regard it as part of the plan.

This is why Trump was against the preservation of human life through direct action against CO2 emissions and in favour of more fossil fuel production.  Thankfully Biden will reverse this and hopefully it is not too late.  The problem still remains of the huge percentage of the US population that do not buy into the truth.  Without that backing it is so much harder to get the consensus needed to take meaningful action.  That is why Trump was such a danger and - in effect - a mass murderer, at least a potential one.

The Republican party must now decide if it is a crazed lunatic religious cult or a political party with legitimate goals.  It must decide if it represents a section of US society that wants the country to improve or if it is a death cult that is hell bent on the destruction of human life and the death of all US citizens with it.

Today Mr Biden becomes US president (unless he is shot by a fascist first).  Today is a good day in human history.

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