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Why don't they JUST grip?


johnnyboxer
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Ive had my 2017 Repsol rep since Jan this year, and ive been struggling with it recently.

On dryer days its fine and a good laugh to ride, but as its winter in NZ at the moment its been a real ball ache!

Don't get me wrong, its probably not the bike more my riding style, but my lad rides inters with me and went up a slippery muddy wet stream on his TRS, with hardly a whiff of throttle no problem. Me on the Mont popped over a small rock, trying to be gentle on the throttle and just spun up. I was fuming!!

So i don't know, perceiver or move on?

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1 hour ago, johnnyboxer said:

What's wrong with a normal Michelin X11??

I have a decent APICO gauge, just the operator is a numpty and needs to let his tyres down

The X11 has harder side walls and stands up to more abuse, but it doesn't quite grip as good as the more durable Xlite. 

But for the majority of riders the difference is negligible  

Its a toss up between cost, longevity and grip.

The choice is yours but personally, I run around 3psi in the back, else you may risk it coming off the rim. If the going is hard, i.e rocks, I run around 4lb just to protect against punctures.

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48 minutes ago, roba said:

Ive had my 2017 Repsol rep since Jan this year, and ive been struggling with it recently.

On dryer days its fine and a good laugh to ride, but as its winter in NZ at the moment its been a real ball ache!

Don't get me wrong, its probably not the bike more my riding style, but my lad rides inters with me and went up a slippery muddy wet stream on his TRS, with hardly a whiff of throttle no problem. Me on the Mont popped over a small rock, trying to be gentle on the throttle and just spun up. I was fuming!!

So i don't know, perceiver or move on?

The 4rt is a great bike to ride, but it won't grip unless you learn to use the power smoothly. Its a totally different throttle control style, some folk just never get to grips (excuse the pun) with them and revert back to the 2 banger. The problem is you see the world guys - Bou, Busto and Fuji on them and think to yourself "well they make them grip"! Yes but they live on theirs! and the truth is how do their scores compare, on average,on the slippy muddy sections to the other competitors? Has anybody actually done the statistics?

Edited by dav cc
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2 hours ago, johnnyboxer said:

So how do you 'work' the throttle right to maintain grip?

You've got to feed it in slowly and smoothly with less clutch than you would on a 2 stroke. Keep the throttle as continuous as possible, i.e less blipping than normal.  I call it the tractor technique. It takes a bit of mastering but once you've got the idea you will see what I mean. The problem arises when you get tired and you get a little more throttle happy.

This is why most clubmen riders would be better off on less powerful machines. The more forgiving the power the easier it is to control and react to.

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What a lot of people don't take into account is the fact that more power is only advantageous if it is controllable, else its a disadvantage. The top riders need the power because of the sheer size of stuff they have to ascend from such a small take off.

 Where as a less powerful more "grippy" bike would suit the majority of trials riders.  

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I'm lucky enough to own both a 4t, Beta 300 2016, and just recently a 2t 2017 factory Beta 250. Having ridden Beta 3002ts before that. I found the 4t to be a hand full when i first got it in May 2016. After a while i got used to it, and i do like it. Power does come on instantly, and when you shut it off the power impulses stop immediatly. I found that the 300 2t was too powerful, and at times would break loose.

So i went to a 250cc 2t in 2017. The factory edition is very soft. You rev it up and it feels it takes 1/2 a second to go anywhere, but when you shut it off at the top of a rock it still is pulling. I weigh 101 Kg, (224 LBs) without gear, advanced rider. I have no problem getting up any of the steep pitches that it can do on my 300s. If you need serious power you just rev it out and feed out the clutch.

Switching back and forth is probably not the best way to go as far as being perfect on the one machine. I do find that i am more competitive on a 2t.

Right now we are in the dry summer here on the West Coast of British Columbia and i like to use the new Dunlop GP803 on both bikes. They're cheap and long lasting. In the winter i prefer a Michelin x-11, set at 3 LBs, 4 LBs on the x- lite. Haven't had much luck with the x-lites. I often rip out the sidewall.

Have to agree with dav cc, the average Joe does not need a whole lot of power, and would probably do better on a smaller machine.

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I remember watching Rob Shepherd back in, well a long time ago, on his Honda 4stroke. People flocked to see him at the likes of the Scott to see him find grip where others were stuck it just seemed to go anywhere.

Love the grip of my beta 4t  just chugs away,so smooth and progressive but if it does spin it's gone

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It will grip, just not as you want it too.

This can be practised on the flat

Fot the conditions as you described, I would make it grip on the over run. Get it wound up and the wheel spinning on the approach, speed shouldn't be too important, but plenty of revs are as is rear biased body positioning.

Shut the throttle with clutch released, the bike will now reduce in rpm, at some point the bike will grip (surprising and almost throwing you off the back). Catch this point back on the throttle to keep it driving and gripping.

You are now a 4rt God

Edited by jrsunt
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7 hours ago, jrsunt said:

 

It will grip, just not as you want it too.

This can be practised on the flat

Fot the conditions as you described, I would make it grip on the over run. Get it wound up and the wheel spinning on the approach, speed shouldn't be too important, but plenty of revs are as is rear biased body positioning.

Shut the throttle with clutch released, the bike will now reduce in rpm, at some point the bike will grip (surprising and almost throwing you off the back). Catch this point back on the throttle to keep it driving and gripping.

You are now a 4rt God

I have seen you a few times and you are one of the best UK 4RT riders I have seen 

Thanks for the tips

I don't rev it or wind it up enough - I will practise that

 

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Jr sunt has it spot on. Ride it on the over run and when it does grip make good use of it to get your speed so you have some in reserve to be able to back it if on the over run. If you watch slow mos of bou he is shutting off before he does anything - if what bou does is relevant to us mere humans. I have found that with the clutch out you can be quiet brutal with the throttle when you have grip in a straight line. Again use this to build up some grip credits for when you need to back off. I also found for deep mud 3 rd gear high ish revs but steady. Let the clutch slip but not burn the tyre. When you get a bit of momentum go throttle and clutch out then if needed let it grip on the over run. Jr's explanation explains why lower gears work on the monts.

 

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On 8/2/2017 at 6:42 AM, nigel dabster said:

I would practice the section too slow. Do it so the bike stalls and then slightly faster and so on till it rides and leave the clutch alone as much as possible.

4rt and 2t different techniques, as sunt says

Agreed.

I find I often hold the twist grip dead steady at a set speed through a slippy area so as not to break traction through engine braking effect. I don't think I have a problem with grip.

 

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On 30 July 2017 at 9:15 PM, johnnyboxer said:

 

Grr, I find the front end has a mind of its own sometimes too

I found early on with the 4rt to never shut the throttle fully - with the engine braking especially on the early bikes the front would get loaded up and then do its own thing.

I found this out on a flat slippery stream were the 4rt was going all directions and my old 315R would never have - being basically y the same chassis had to be engine related.

If you apply this theory to going across cambers etc - if you shut off fully then front has a higher chance of sliding compared to a 2T

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