heffergm Posted September 26, 2018 Report Share Posted September 26, 2018 (edited) You guys keep skirting around this: If the governing body really wants rigorous enforcement of any set of rules as they deem appropriate, they can pay a dedicated group of observers to so do. Rigorous enforcement of any complex set of rules by groups of volunteers from disparate backgrounds across the globe cannot be expected to do that. What's more, you can't expect to hold them accountable for anything because again, they're volunteers. If I'm scoring a world round section and decide to not enforce rule XYZ, what recourse does the FIM have? None. If I'm paid by the FIM, they can fire me and find someone to do the job the way they want it done. Can anyone else come up with a professional global sport where the umpires/referees/line judges/etc are volunteers? I can't think of one. I think you either need to accept some level of variability with this setup we've got, or do what I've suggested and open up the coffers. Edited September 26, 2018 by heffergm 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted September 26, 2018 Report Share Posted September 26, 2018 4 minutes ago, heffergm said: You guys keep skirting around this: If the governing body really wants rigorous enforcement of any set of rules as they deem appropriate, they can pay a dedicated group of observers to so do. Rigorous enforcement of any complex set of rules by groups of volunteers from disparate backgrounds across the globe cannot be expected to do that. What's more, you can't expect to hold them accountable for anything because again, they're volunteers. If I'm scoring a world round section and decide to not enforce rule XYZ, what recourse does the FIM have? None. If I'm paid by the FIM, they can fire me and find someone to do the job the way they want it done. So, how much would they have to pay you to stop making up your own rules ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oni nou Posted September 26, 2018 Report Share Posted September 26, 2018 4 minutes ago, trapezeartist said: At World level I'm not really bothered whether it is "no stop" or "stop allowed" as long as the rules are clear and rigorously enforced. The current problem is the failure to mark according to the rules. If that was done, the riders would very quickly fall into line. I suggested a similar "3 second" rule in another thread, but on reflection I think it has many similar problems to the existing situation. If a rider stopped (for less than 3 seconds), then moved a couple of inches and stopped again, that would reset the timer. While hopping about in an awkward space, that could happen many times before the rider goes for it proper. I agree but the rules are all over the place... Lineway knows what you can and cannot do, he has observed at World trials in the USA and that video that the FIM had made to show what was acceptable and what was not is out of date......the problem is that they still refer to the rules as non stop and that is clearly not the case, it needs to be updated to non stop with stop allowed ....their interpretation of the word stop is different to a dictionary definition so it is pointless trying to understand the marking system .When a bike can have 1 wheel stopped yet the other can be considered to be making progress its time to enjoy the sheer madness of it all and accept that the results mean nothing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heffergm Posted September 26, 2018 Report Share Posted September 26, 2018 If by made up you mean "watched the majority of other checkers at various events and see how they call things and use that as a guide", then yes, I've made up my own rules. There's no sum that can buy me off, I'm a free bird. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineaway Posted September 26, 2018 Report Share Posted September 26, 2018 Well it seems like the scorers in the UK went to the same scorer`s meeting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heffergm Posted September 26, 2018 Report Share Posted September 26, 2018 (edited) Great, so the UK did. Japan doesn't. The US is a crapshoot. And still none of them score according to the UK's concept of no stop, which may or may not be what the rules actually call for. This entire debate might explain why I love indoor and am starting to not give two f's about outdoor... Edited September 26, 2018 by heffergm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trapezeartist Posted September 27, 2018 Report Share Posted September 27, 2018 22 hours ago, heffergm said: This entire debate might explain why I love indoor and am starting to not give two f's about outdoor... This entire debate also explains that there is a fundamental problem with scoring trials at the moment, at least at World Championship level. Scoring should be objective; observers aren't giving marks for style. But clearly, in reality, it's very subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heffergm Posted September 27, 2018 Report Share Posted September 27, 2018 (edited) Yeah... that was my point about 8 pages ago. No one seems to get it (except you! Progress!) Edited September 27, 2018 by heffergm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhuskys Posted September 28, 2018 Report Share Posted September 28, 2018 1 hour ago, heffergm said: Yeah... that was my point about 8 pages ago. No one seems to get it (except you! Progress!) You mentioned earlier the different countries and their take on No Stop.... Is the UK the most consistent in observing, as they are No Stop except for Super Trial and Sheffield Indoor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyc21 Posted September 28, 2018 Report Share Posted September 28, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, nhuskys said: You mentioned earlier the different countries and their take on No Stop.... Is the UK the most consistent in observing, as they are No Stop except for Super Trial and Sheffield Indoor? I think your hitting on at least part of the problem. How many other national events are No Stop... almost 0 last time I checked. The UK, world, who else? So if so few adopted it I wonder why we continue to see it in the world round? I have to agree with heffergm, haven't yet seen a post by him on this subject that I didn't approve of yet. Edited September 28, 2018 by jonnyc21 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineaway Posted September 28, 2018 Report Share Posted September 28, 2018 Did you guys NOT watch the GB world round? More stops than anybody with sections set for ? You got it, stop and hop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyc21 Posted September 28, 2018 Report Share Posted September 28, 2018 2 hours ago, lineaway said: Did you guys NOT watch the GB world round? More stops than anybody with sections set for ? You got it, stop and hop. I wasn't talking about how they actually scored there, was talking about how they are the only place that "supposedly" adopted the No Stop rules... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhuskys Posted September 28, 2018 Report Share Posted September 28, 2018 I just watched the TdN highlights vid and didn't look like much stop and hop there.... Well now on to indoors and stop allowed....then everyone can decry, how the time limit has ruined indoors all winter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heffergm Posted September 28, 2018 Report Share Posted September 28, 2018 (edited) I think the time limit in indoors has been great. I love that it's clear cut... no more time per section, then some mysterious number of penalty points if you're over. I also love that the time limit is for all the sections combined, rather than per section, so now you can employ some strategy. It's also a lot more physical for the riders than it was before, and whether it's that, the section design, or whatever, the young kids are really killing it indoors. Gelabert, Bincaz, Busto, all fantastic finishes this year. Even Farré looked good before he got hurt, Marcelli almost beat Ferrer on his debut. Good stuff. The promoter did a really great job with the section design, the venue lighting, etc as well. If you go watch old indoor rounds, they look horrible in comparison. I'm really looking forward to the next indoor season to start. FYI, a lot of last season is available on Livestream (search for 'xtrial'). Edited September 28, 2018 by heffergm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhuskys Posted September 28, 2018 Report Share Posted September 28, 2018 I bought the subscription last year and it was well worth it. There were some initial teething problems but was great and you could re-watch the events. Only thing I could fault promoter on was the cancelling a round, on what seemed like dodgy reasons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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