Another Tube/Tubeless Question

[JonM]

I'm sorry for asking but I'm a bit lost and usual methods of getting answers aren't working... 

 

I've recently bought a heap of a 2001 250 TXT (eBay, and yes, I should've walked away) and last week removed the cracked, nasty rear tyre. 

I couldn't get the bead off on one side so ended up cutting it off. 

It was a Barum tyre with innertube, but I thought it odd no rim lock? 

So question 1- In 2001 did the TXT have tube front & tubeless rear? 

Question 2- the rim is nasty and corroded inside. Could this be a reason for running a tube (because it wasn't sealing well?) 

Question 3- if it's a tubeless rim but I choose to run a tube, is it better to buy a tubeless tyre or tubed tyre? Just thinking about rim wall shape. 

I think the old tyre had the bead glued on one side to stop rotation (which makes sense if no rim lock) but I'm lost as to whether I should be tubed, tubeless and how to best achieve an outcome? 

 

 

[woody]

1.  Yes, tubeless rear, tubed front.  Tubeless front rims were discontinued a long time ago

2.  Possibly, they seal normally using a rubber sealing tape around the rim which seals off the spokes to stop air leaking past the spoke heads. Tubes are sometimes fitted as these tapes are a pain to fit and can still leak. Some give up and fit a tube.  If the corrosion is bad the tape won't sit correctly and air will escape. If it's really bad be sure that it's not going to fail in some way. Corrosion isn't uncommon on older tubeless rims

3.  Tubeless rims need tubeless tyres whether you fit a tube or not. A tube type tyre won't stay on the rim and the bead will drop off. You don't need rim locks with a tube fitted as a tubeless tyre holds itself and won't creep

 

[feetupfun]

Your rear rim should be a tubeless type. Maybe post a photo showing it so we can tell if someone has fitted a tube type rim.

 

[JonM]

12 hours ago, woody said:

1.  Yes, tubeless rear, tubed front.  Tubeless front rims were discontinued a long time ago

2.  Possibly, they seal normally using a rubber sealing tape around the rim which seals off the spokes to stop air leaking past the spoke heads. Tubes are sometimes fitted as these tapes are a pain to fit and can still leak. Some give up and fit a tube.  If the corrosion is bad the tape won't sit correctly and air will escape. If it's really bad be sure that it's not going to fail in some way. Corrosion isn't uncommon on older tubeless rims

3.  Tubeless rims need tubeless tyres whether you fit a tube or not. A tube type tyre won't stay on the rim and the bead will drop off. You don't need rim locks with a tube fitted as a tubeless tyre holds itself and won't creep

 

Woody, thank you so much. 

 

Everything answered and so my best course is to buy a tubeless tyre and run it with a tube. 

(The tyre I took off was actually a tube type tyre, so a bit naughty.)

 

I've cleaned the rim with abrasive brushes and emery cloth but still looks like this:

[feetupfun]

If that was mine I wouldn't ride it with that rim due to the loss of strength of the metal where the spokes attach.

It's fairly common to have to replace rims on off-road bikes due to internal corrosion

[JonM]

2 hours ago, feetupfun said:

If that was mine I wouldn't ride it with that rim due to the loss of strength of the metal where the spokes attach.

It's fairly common to have to replace rims on off-road bikes due to internal corrosion

In principle I agree but in this instance I just don't think it's worth the cost and effort. 

When I picked the bike up I could see it was well worn but with eBay I do believe you have to 'suck it and see'. I could see it was rough but that's the game. 

I picked it up in December before lockdown and repacked the mid/end silencers, changed plug, air filter & gearbox oil. 

Forks are f**ked but have had seals + bushes replaced anyway. 

The back wheel had two missing spokes but plenty more loose, and of course they're all seized. Nightly for a week I oiled them with penetrating fluid and took a blowtorch to them. Some freed, most didn't, so I'm £40 into new spokes + nipples. 

 

Guess what I'm saying is I bought a wrong 'un and I'm just throwing money into a pit. I'll do what needs to be done but no more, as it'll only ever be a tired 20yr old bike. 

[trialman]

Hi, used to have a txt, and the sealing tape on these rims were always crap. Cheap get around is to seal all round rim with a good silicone sealant, I did this on a txt rim I fitted to a ty175 so I could use the better tyres, putting a tube in stops the tyre being pliable and loses you grip. If you do this leave to dry for a few days before fitting tyre you should be good to go. if you've used a good quality sealant [NOT CAULK] this should last a good while, my ty's 3 years on from rebuild, also the sealant stops the rim corroding anymore, you're rim looks ok for use but if you notice any spokes going slack, inspect rim around spoke and if there's any sign off cracking then replace rim or source s/h wheel.

[totty79]

If you use a silicone sealant be very careful which one you use,  some are very acidic an will rapidly corrode the rim. That's how a previous owner trashed the rim on the txt I had.

If you use a tube without a rim lock it seems to be pot luck if you'll get away with it, some have been OK, but in mine it spun and tore the valve off.

Since you're going to the hassle of replacing the spokes it makes sense to replace the rim. It's hard to tell from the photo if that rim is even safe to use.

If you stick with that rim I'd carefully clean where the sealing tape fits and I'd fit a new tape coated in the type of tyre sealant that you put in to prevent flats like gunk or slime. If it goes flat over a day or two then that's fine, as long as it holds long enough for a trial.

Edited January 24, 2021 by totty79

[JonM]

58 minutes ago, totty79 said:

If you use a silicone sealant be very careful which one you use,  some are very acidic an will rapidly corrode the rim. That's how a previous owner trashed the rim on the txt I had.

If you use a tube without a rim lock it seems to be pot luck if you'll get away with it, some have been OK, but in mine it spun and tore the valve off.

Since you're going to the hassle of replacing the spokes it makes sense to replace the rim. It's hard to tell from the photo if that rim is even safe to use.

If you stick with that rim I'd carefully clean where the sealing tape fits and I'd fit a new tape coated in the type of tyre sealant that you put in to prevent flats like gunk or slime. If it goes flat over a day or two then that's fine, as long as it holds long enough for a trial.

I'm only replacing the spokes I have to, which is probably 8 or 9+? (two broken/missing + loose spokes which are seized and can't be tightened). 

If I replace rim + full set of spokes I'm looking at c.£200 on a wreck of a bike. 

Regrettably I don't have £200 but even if I did, I wouldn't spend it. This is my first trials bike and I need to see how I get on. If I decide to take things further I'd either sell the bike 'as is' or break it for spares. 

I need to be pragmatic and given the overall state of the old girl, she just doesn't warrant the kind of money required to make her competition worthy. 

 

I'm ever so grateful for all the help, though, so to recap:

1) Fit a tubeless tyre with a tube.

2) Fit a tubeless tyre, get hold of sealing strip and look to find a low acidity silicone sealant so I don't do any further damage. 

Option 1 or 2?

 

[feetupsbetter]

I ride on a budget by the sound of it similar to yourself. All my modern bikes since taking up the sport again (3 gassers and a evo), have come to me with tubes fitted in a tubeless tyre, and I’ve never had any problems with that set up. They all had rim tapes fitted although I assumed they leaked, but they help protect the tube from damage on the spoke nipples, and also act as grip to stop the tube spinning. Once the tyre is seated properly on the rim with the tube at high pressure, they can be run/ridden down to 3.5psi quite readily, without rim locks. Looking at your rim I might be tempted to apply something like a lacquer or maybe waxoyl to stop it corroding further, as once you ride it in water the area between the tube & rim stays wet forever. 
So I’d go with an option 3, tubeless tyre with tube, rim tape but no silicone (no risk of silicone corrosion).

Good luck.

[feetupsbetter]

Oh, one other point, I’ve never done it but I understand rim tapes are notoriously difficult to fit !

I hope you get it into a rideable state and get hooked on this great sport, assuming we will be able to get out & ride again sometime !

[JonM]

8 minutes ago, feetupsbetter said:

I ride on a budget by the sound of it similar to yourself. All my modern bikes since taking up the sport again (3 gassers and a evo), have come to me with tubes fitted in a tubeless tyre, and I’ve never had any problems with that set up. They all had rim tapes fitted although I assumed they leaked, but they help protect the tube from damage on the spoke nipples, and also act as grip to stop the tube spinning. Once the tyre is seated properly on the rim with the tube at high pressure, they can be run/ridden down to 3.5psi quite readily, without rim locks. Looking at your rim I might be tempted to apply something like a lacquer or maybe waxoyl to stop it corroding further, as once you ride it in water the area between the tube & rim stays wet forever. 
So I’d go with an option 3, tubeless tyre with tube, rim tape but no silicone (no risk of silicone corrosion).

Good luck.

Option 3 sounds good! 

I understand running a tube inside the tyre is going to reduce the compliance of the tyre a little, and that I also won't be able to run quite as low pressure but with what I've got it seems the most cost effective solution. 

A Waxoyl type product is a good shout. 

 

As for riding, I'm looking forward to getting more involved. I've dabbled with different two wheel sports with & without engines, so hoping there's a bit of crossover. 

[sherpa325]

I have mountain bikes as well and most are now converted to tubeless tyres. You can buy the adhesive tape they use [seals off the spokes]  it is very flexible, comes in many widths, and has a very high level of adhesion. After fitting the tyre you have to put some sealer inside to stop any minor leaks. I found a nail in my MTB back tyre the other day when cleaning it and as soon as I took it out the sealer bubbled out of the hole for a couple of minutes and then stopped and hasn't lost any pressure since then after riding for over 10hrs or more, so there system does work.There are plenty of YouTube videos on how to do it and I am pretty sure the sealer would have to be non corrosive as the majority of rims would be alloy. Using this system which won't cost much you will still be able to use the tubeless tyre which is a way better idea than using a tube. I have done this on a couple of mountain bikes as they come 'tubeless ready' that is the tyres are tubeless but they have a tube fitted from the factory.

Cheers Greg

[JonM]

47 minutes ago, sherpa325 said:

I have mountain bikes as well and most are now converted to tubeless tyres. You can buy the adhesive tape they use [seals off the spokes]  it is very flexible, comes in many widths, and has a very high level of adhesion. After fitting the tyre you have to put some sealer inside to stop any minor leaks. I found a nail in my MTB back tyre the other day when cleaning it and as soon as I took it out the sealer bubbled out of the hole for a couple of minutes and then stopped and hasn't lost any pressure since then after riding for over 10hrs or more, so there system does work.There are plenty of YouTube videos on how to do it and I am pretty sure the sealer would have to be non corrosive as the majority of rims would be alloy. Using this system which won't cost much you will still be able to use the tubeless tyre which is a way better idea than using a tube. I have done this on a couple of mountain bikes as they come 'tubeless ready' that is the tyres are tubeless but they have a tube fitted from the factory.

Cheers Greg

Thanks, Greg. 

I'd still need the Morad rim sealing strip as that has valve, or do you advocate fitting a separate valve (like we do in cast wheels) and sealing tape? 

 

Tbh I'm siding with a tube in a tubeless at the moment. It's £20 for a sealing strip and I have neither a compressor not fitting mousse to properly mount a tubeless. 

I'm also concerned that more spokes might yet ping and I'll need to replace them, so an adhesive sealing strip would be ruined by me lifting it to replace a spoke. 

[ChrisCH]

Looking at the rim I would be sceptical the tubeless will seal on the corrosion.  You can save a bit by using duct tape rather than rim tape - you would need the wide 4" tape for fat MTB on a trials rim, or the proper trials tape (£20 - probably will not seal either).

If you are worried about spokes you might just have to bite the bullet and put a rim on, by which time you are at new wheel stage.

What is the engine like?  It is a very hard decision to make but by the sound of it you are very unhappy with the cycle parts and trying to renovate on the cheap?  I think you have to decide if you are repairing it to resell or to ride.  If the engine is good you might have to come to terms with spending more than you are comfortable with and at least having a basic ride for a year or so.  If you want to resell it stop looking for faults to fix - fit a tube and relist it on eBay.  Thinking you will ride it for a while then break it seems to me to put you in the position of getting the worst of both outcomes.