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johnnyboxer

New Carnet needed for riding a Trial in Europe

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if you want to race an enduro or MX event (we're not talking top level circuit racing), as a Clubman or do a 4 day trial as a social or a classic event 

For a £5000 Trials bike, you will need to lodge a £2000 returnable  deposit to cover import and export of your bike for a Sporting Trial

 

 

Copied from TBM - Trailbike & Enduro Magazine

 

BREXIT - the gift that keeps on giving.... The ACU just now issued a press release that explains how racing motorcycles being taken to European events now need a carnet to travel. And it's the opposite of cheap, check out the following section of the release:

"The Auto-Cycle Union has secured a special deal with the Greater Birmingham Chambers of Commerce (GBCC) for ACU members of a fixed price processing/arrangement fee of £240+VAT. This is discounted from the standard fee of £330+VAT that non-members of the GBCC would pay.

Greater Birmingham Chambers of Commerce is appointed as part of a network of Chambers around the country to issue ATA Carnets.

The second part of the fee is the Premium. This can either be a refundable deposit of 40% of the vehicle’s value or a non-refundable insurance premium to cover the 40% proportion of the premium."

Our reading of that – yeah it's going to cost you £288 plus a refundable deposit of 40% of the bike's value (and for a new KTM you could be talking £4000!) or hopefully a fair deal on an insurance policy (from whom we don't know and at what cost). And jeez, if you're talking two bikes (like below) in the van, yep that's £576, plus £8000 please...

 

 

But no worries lads – it's all good, we've got our sovereignty! Talk about buyer's remorse...

 

https://www.acu.org.uk/News/2021/02/Movement-of-Motorcycle-Vehicles-Post-Brexit/

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Surely the way forward is to register the bike(s)?  The carnet required is for goods.  If the vehicle has a V5 and insurance it is no different to taking a car over on the ferry.

Don't forget you need to carry the V5 with you - always have for travelling on the mainland.

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From my experience in the professional four wheeled motorsport world, even if registered, unless it is being ridden or driven as it leaves UK and enters EU it will need a Carnet, e.g. rally cars based and registered in the UK being used in EU. Professional motorsport will tend to pay the Carnet and insurance for a year at a time for multiple entries..

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So if I live in Switzerland and take my trials bike into France do I need a Carnet ? Or Norway into Sweden ?  My brother recently drove an Australian registered Landrover back to the UK from Oz, the only country that inspected his Carnet was Pakistan, on entering the EU none of the countries were interested in it at all.

To me it smacks of scaremongering or just pure fund raising.

Edited by jon v8
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17 hours ago, jon v8 said:

So if I live in Switzerland and take my trials bike into France do I need a Carnet ? Or Norway into Sweden ?  My brother recently drove an Australian registered Landrover back to the UK from Oz, the only country that inspected his Carnet was Pakistan, on entering the EU none of the countries were interested in it at all.

To me it smacks of scaremongering or just pure fund raising.

I doubt the ACU are in the business of scaremongering to be honest.  Switzerland, France, Norway and Sweden are all EEA countries so there is no issue.  The UK is a third country and so requires carnets for entry into the EU/EEA.  If your brother returned prior to the 1st Jan 2021 there would have been no issue as we were in the transition period.  Plus as above posted by not ron the vehicle was driven not part of the sports goods cargo.

I guess we will see how strictly this is imposed.  We are in new territory as this is the first time people from the UK have been outside the EU.  If the customs officers on the mainland want to be a bit of a jobsworth it could be problematic.  Not that anyone in a uniform is ever a jobsworth ?

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I think the problem is that nobody really knows at the moment! I'm pretty sure French customs won't know what is the correct paperwork, they will just form their own opinion and if you don't have the right paperwork, then sorry, you're not bringing that into the country.

What has happened in the past, what is supposed to happen, won't apply for a while until Normality breaks out.

Equally turning up without every last scrap of paper you MIGHT need is a recipe for disaster.

Having spent 5 years dealing with French bureaucracy, I know that the only way to win is to do it their way.

Oh and it's not their fault, we voted for this.

 

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33 minutes ago, mercuryrev said:

I think the problem is that nobody really knows at the moment! I'm pretty sure French customs won't know what is the correct paperwork, they will just form their own opinion and if you don't have the right paperwork, then sorry, you're not bringing that into the country.

...

That is possible, but the carnet is an International document agreed by everyone.  I would hope that a customs officer will have had at least basic training that identifies standard documents.  Where I think you are going to be correct is that the customs officers in the channel ports probably do not have the experience.  I would think such documents are not uncommon for visitors coming in elsewhere.  Also the Dutch have recently trained and appointed a lot of new customs officials (they seem clued up on sandwiches).

I agree the French Douaniers can be a bit jobsworth.  They also can be found at the motorway toll booths sometimes and that could be interesting if someone has slipped through at Calais.

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In my experience and I have ridden / driven outside the EU too, I recommend to get the bike / vehicle full road worthy registered as a real street motorcycle or car and too likewise insured.

Then you only need your registration papers and have got too the international insurance card, with that green card and a roadworthy registration for day and night, you can travel with your vehicle where ever you want: EU, USA, Russland, Norway or Switzerland, or now too UK.

I personal have nearly all bike registered and insured, it is around 30 - 40 Euro for insurance and 20 - 35 Euro for tax per year depending the size of the engine, not much to debate over, the roadworthy test is expensive, around 110 Euro every 2nd year to each bike it might be cheaper or even not necessary in the UK?

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2 hours ago, ChrisCH said:

That is possible, but the carnet is an International document agreed by everyone.  I would hope that a customs officer will have had at least basic training that identifies standard documents.  Where I think you are going to be correct is that the customs officers in the channel ports probably do not have the experience.  I would think such documents are not uncommon for visitors coming in elsewhere.  Also the Dutch have recently trained and appointed a lot of new customs officials (they seem clued up on sandwiches).

I agree the French Douaniers can be a bit jobsworth.  They also can be found at the motorway toll booths sometimes and that could be interesting if someone has slipped through at Calais.

To illustrate how clued up some French officials are...... This happened to me, there's no, 'a friend told me'

I was asked by a French local government official for a French sales receipt for a UK motorcycle, that I had bought in the UK, from a UK resident and they even sent me an example French receipt to help me.

I was told by a French policeman that I have to change my driving licence now, despite the French authorities suspending UK licence exchanges for the time being. Even when I showed him a copy of the decree (rules) he still insisted I have a year to do it, or I would be in trouble.

At the end of the day, customs officials are there to do their jobs, so if they think you need a carnet, they want to see a carnet. If you don't have one and they don't check at the border, you've been lucky and can carry on with your holiday. If they do check at the border or, as Chris says, further along your trip, and you don't have one, expect a load of hassle.

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6 hours ago, ChrisCH said:

I doubt the ACU are in the business of scaremongering to be honest.  Switzerland, France, Norway and Sweden are all EEA countries so there is no issue.  The UK is a third country and so requires carnets for entry into the EU/EEA.  If your brother returned prior to the 1st Jan 2021 there would have been no issue as we were in the transition period.  Plus as above posted by not ron the vehicle was driven not part of the sports goods cargo.

I guess we will see how strictly this is imposed.  We are in new territory as this is the first time people from the UK have been outside the EU.  If the customs officers on the mainland want to be a bit of a jobsworth it could be problematic.  Not that anyone in a uniform is ever a jobsworth ?

You partly missed my point - The Landrover was an Australian registered vehicle, as I said the Carnet was only inspected  on entering Pakistan,no other countries were interested. And why don't the ACU suggest machines being road registered rather than using a Carnet if it is required. Several years ago we were all advised to get off road bikes registered to help with returning stolen bikes - Surely this would be better advice than paying a tax which only lasts for a year ?

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Your Land Roving friend was either lucky or chose his route well, then - carnet problems have hit lots of round-the-world bikers in all kinds of places.

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14 minutes ago, turbofurball said:

Your Land Roving friend was either lucky or chose his route well, then - carnet problems have hit lots of round-the-world bikers in all kinds of places.

It was my brother,and yes he spent a great deal of time  sorting his route, I ended up helping him in trying to get a visa for Pakistan because he couldn't pass through Iran. A nightmare of paperwork compared to taking a trials bike to France. His Landrover is seen here shortly before he told a Chinese immigration officer to F--- Off in no uncertain terms. Sometimes you have to stand your ground.It paid off, he gained entry, but was glad to leave, and has no desire to return.

Frank China.jpg

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So if Scotland becomes independent and hooks up with the EU again, bang goes the Scottish Six Day Trial for most English, Welsh and Northern Irish riders, too much paperwork, so will it will be mostly the French, Spaniards etc instead?

 

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MICM I think you are right and Scotland will be unlikely to get a form of special deal, but do not forget unless there is a feasible sea route directly from an EU port to Scotland, the EU based riders would have to do the paperwork to travel via England.

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16 hours ago, jon v8 said:

It was my brother,and yes he spent a great deal of time  sorting his route,...

Sounds like a great trip.  I had intended to do the Sahara (trail bikes) for my 40th but gave up for a variety of reasons, but one thing that really put me off was all the paperwork and nonsense to take a vehicle through Egypt.  Some years later I discovered that Tunisia was a great deal easier and the better option (go via Italy) but by then too late for me and then there were the terrorist shootings and that put paid to that.

Maybe for my 70th/80th now, if the pandemic has ended.....

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